View source for Testwiki:Tea room/2017/April

{{discussion month}}

== Obsolete IPA character ==

Which IPA character should be used instead of the crossed I shown in {{m|en|Hartlepool}} (apparently obsolete)? It should sound like hart-le-pool. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 13:28, 1 April 2017 (UTC)''
: Perhaps {{IPAchar|/ɪ/}} or {{IPAchar|/ə/}}. (See [[ᵻ]].) —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 16:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
:: {{IPAchar|/ɪ/}}. {{IPAchar|/ə/}}<!-- generated by T:x2ipachar --> would be used to transcribe dialects in which the phoneme {{IPAchar|/ɪ/}} does not occur unstressed (i.e., it has merged with {{IPAchar|/ə/}}<!-- generated by T:x2ipachar -->). — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 17:45, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Thanks to both, I think it may be ɪ, le is actually from Norman. I couldn't format it for {{temp|IPA}} as the pronunciation I filched from Wikipedia has that invalid character. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 18:19, 1 April 2017 (UTC)''
:::: You can still use {{temp|IPA}}- the error message will only show up in the preview. [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 18:23, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Oh I see, I didn't chance it, thanks. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 18:27, 1 April 2017 (UTC)''

== [[not quite]] ==

Is that a good definition? --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 23:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
: I think it's pretty accurate, but it doesn't seem to capture the connotation of ''not quite'', which I think has a bit more emphasis on the negative than your definition implies, if that makes sense. I can't think of a good way to make it better though. [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 01:13, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
:: {{ping|Andrew Sheedy}}: That's what bothers me. Pragmatically, you can't use it like you would "almost" or "very nearly". Is it rather a synonym of "not exactly", or "[[not really]]"? --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 17:19, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
::: I think "not exactly" is pretty close in meaning. [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[con]] ==

* We currently claim the deceiving sense is slang. This seems highly unlikely, since it is such a common usage in all English speaking countries. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 01:59, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
** Yeah, that doesn't seem right to me. Maybe someone was referencing an older dictionary that classified it as slang? [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 01:16, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
*** I feel that we constantly use "slang" where it doesn't apply. Particularly it's often used for "informal" or "colloquial". In my understanding, slang requires that a word can't be used towards a vast portion of society, because they would either censure it or not understand it. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 10:23, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
** Is this the same usage as "the con of man" from ''The Da Vinci Code''?  I would say that it is not a slang usage; "informal" might be the best descriptor.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 08:24, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[informationization]] ==

Is this a word in English? [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 09:21, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

: Not to my knowledge. It sounds awful anyway. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 12:15, 2 April 2017 (UTC)''

:: It gets more than enough hits on Google books to be includable. [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 14:56, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

: Yes; created. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 16:36, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

* Thanks everyone. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 00:13, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

:: These abominations show up all over the place, especially in technical contexts. Start with a verb (inform), evolve into a noun (information), transmogrify into another verb (informationize, unattested to my knowledge), then burst forth as yet another noun. This is mechanically doable in English through the magic of lexical suffixes, a process that has no limits in principle but eventually unravels into verbal refuse. Just stop it.

::: Who are you telling to "stop it"? The English language has been doing things like this for hundreds of years and a stupid dictionary is hardly going to stand in its way. [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 22:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: Down with antiaffixizationers! --[[User:G23r0f0i|G23r0f0i]] ([[User talk:G23r0f0i|talk]]) 21:12, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== {{m|en|affix}}, {{m|en|clitic}} ==

Each of these entries links to the other as a coordinate term, but the difference between them is not made clear. MW's definition of ''clitic'' implies that it is used only of that which results from a contraction, but then the English possessive {{m|en|-'s}} is clearly not an enclitic.__[[User:Gamren|Gamren]] ([[User talk:Gamren|talk]]) 17:53, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

: An affix turns one word into another word (or form of a word). A clitic functions grammatically as its own word, but is pronounced as part of another word. The possessive {{m|en|-'s}} in English is a borderline case where a former affix has taken on some properties of a clitic, such as being able to be applied to phrases, rather than individual words. Take for example "Jack and Jill's pale", if the ''-s'' were still purely an affix marking the possessive "case", then you'd expect "Jack's and Jill's pale". --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 16:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[ileus]] ==

The definition is incorrect (cf. {{w|Ileus|ileus on Wikipedia}}). [[User:Wyang|Wyang]] ([[User talk:Wyang|talk]]) 11:04, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
: I tried to fix it myself... after several days of unresponsiveness. [[User:Wyang|Wyang]] ([[User talk:Wyang|talk]]) 08:58, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[rench]] ==

Is this a word in English? [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 11:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
:I can't find anything useful on b.g.c. except an old-fashioned dialectal form of {{m|en|rinse}} (e.g. [https://books.google.de/books?id=czVAAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22rench%22&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q=rench&f=false], [https://books.google.de/books?redir_esc=y&id=Qn0HAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22rench%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22rench%22]). —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 13:05, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
: It would be an understandable misspelling for [[wrench]]. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 13:25, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

== How to conjugate irregular compound verbs  ==

I just heard a commentator on SoCal public radio (KPCC) use the term 'greenlit' in reference to a film project initiated some years ago. I often hear an irregular compound verb like this conjugated like the basic verb. I think we all agree that the past tense of 'undergo' must be 'underwent' if only because 'undergoed' sounds horrendous. In the case of greenlight, however, the word derived from a noun--an electric traffic control--so the choice between 'lit' and 'lighted' is more nuanced. Are there rules here or merely stylistic preferences? {{unsigned}}
: I have heard it said that verbs formed from nouns are always conjugated regularly -- hence "the batter flied out" (not "flew out"), and "the soldiers ringed the fortress" (not "rang the fortress"), which suggests that "greenlighted" is correct since it's formed from the noun phrase "green light", as you note. [[User:Benwing2|Benwing2]] ([[User talk:Benwing2|talk]]) 17:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
:: In the case of ''ring'', the verb and noun are unrelated, so it wouldn't make sense to say "rang" anyway. For "fly out", people always seem to be tempted to say "flew out" even though everyone says "flied out" is correct. With "greenlight", however, I think "greenlit" is the most commonly used form. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:38, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I'm guessing that the only player who ever actually flew out was Yogi Berra. {{unsigned|Robinsjo|22:43, 3 April 2017}}
::: Which proves that they are not "always conjugated regularly". They just may be or tend to be. There are probably other examples for both cases. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 20:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Of course, this tendency could be a factor in the collapse of the system of English strong verbs, which we expect to happen in the 32nd century. Because the main factor that blocks forms like ''flied'' and ''eated'' is that they sound strange and give you a little shiver deep insde. But when you can say "flied out", with time "he flied to Amsterdam" might not sound just as strange anymore. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 20:33, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: All we need is a generation of children to grow up without parents or schoolteachers. That should take care of all the strong verbs. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 20:37, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: You think? I'm not sure. All Germanic languages except Afrikaans, even including all dialects, still have them, although those were spoken for maybe 1700 years since Proto-Germanic without any education among the normal population. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 21:08, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Down with parents and teachers! --[[User:G23r0f0i|G23r0f0i]] ([[User talk:G23r0f0i|talk]]) 21:10, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: I mean those people did have parents, but not educated ones. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 21:09, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: Yeah but look what happened to Afrikaans in a matter of a couple centuries. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 21:24, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Admittedly, there is a difference now with people moving around so much, and so many non-native speakers using English. So maybe you're right with regards to English at least. But nah, I like strong verbs. Of course, it's only because I'm used to them. But, actually, it's the only thing I would change about Afrikaans. It's a cute language, but something like ''ek het gevind'' ("I has finded")? No, sorry, I'm too conservative for that. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 21:44, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: When I was studying morphology in college, we discussed this in two separate contexts: the regularization of irregular verbs with significant semantic drift and irregularity in novel compounds. For the first category, we had the "flied out" example, as well as the fact that many people consider the plural a computer "mouse" to be "mouses". Similarly, I have since noticed speakers' unwillingness to make the past of "to grind on someone" (the dance move) as "He ''ground'' on her" with most people favoring "grinded" (though this could represent the effect of verbification if the etymology is "to do the grind" > "to grind").
:::::::: For the second category, one of my friends noticed that, when asked to form the past of a compound verb where the first member was irregular, the speaker might doubly mark the past tense. So some speakers would consider the following conjugations well formed:
::::::::* "to breakdance" → "to have brokedanced" or "to have breakdanced"
::::::::* "to sleepwalk" → "to have slepwalked" or "to have sleepwalked" (but not "to have *sleptwalked")
:::::::: All this to say that these effects can go in either direction depending on a wide variety of factors. —<span class="Latf" style="font-size: 100%">[[User:JohnC5|John]][[User talk:JohnC5|C5]]</span> 00:12, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Looking at language histories, I think that simple past forms will disappear altogether before the strong verbs get regularized. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 22:07, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Indeed that has happened in some languages. Afrikaans, again. And also in most of High German the simple past is at least unproductive. In Yiddish and Swiss German it has disappeared entirely. In Luxembourgish, as a northern High German language, it's restricted to some 20 simple verbs. However, all High German dialects still have strong verbs, because they use the perfect tense and the perfect participle remains strong. In English, maybe people will substitute ''he did fly'', so that would mean they're gone. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 22:33, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: I'm speaking about trends I see in English, not general cross-Germanic or cross-linguistic trends. In American English, the pluperfect will soon be replaced entirely by the simple past. So the simple past is not going anywhere. The simple present, on the other hand, is more likely to disappear, for active verbs at least, although as of now its habitual-aspect uses and non-indicative uses are still highly productive. My comment about strong verbs disappearing is based on the fact that children do tend to say things like "flied" and "eated" until they are taught not to; although there are some strong verb patterns that are on the contrary likely to grow in usage, like the ''-ing/-ang'' > ''-ung'' pattern (note also that the simple past/past participle distinction is collapsing into just one form), so sang/rang will be gone in favor of sung/rung, and ''brought'' will become ''brung'', and I wouldn't be surprised if weak verbs like ''banged'' become ''bung''. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:35, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Yes. The perfect is also used less (I think especially in American English) than what traditional grammar would imply, isn't it? You're likely to hear ''I brought you some flowers'' instead of ''I've...''. So the English past tense seems stable. -- I think small children are likely in most languages to use regularized forms. They also do in German. But the fact that older children don't, needn't be because they're told "don't say that", but because they adapt later on. Of course, it's hard to find out and distinguish. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 00:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[centoctovigesimal]] ==

* Is <del>"uncentoctovigesimal"</del> "centoctovigesimal" the correct term for base-128 numbers?  I can't seem to find any citations other than "<code>[[wikipedia:List of numeral systems#Standard positional numeral systems]]</code>," which contains a lot of terms not on Wiktionary, and is missing citations.  I would suggest that we need an appendix here listing the names for number bases.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 18:41, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
** 2: [[binary]]
** 4: [[quaternary]]
** 8: [[octal]]
** 16: [[hexadecimal]]
** 32: [[duotrigesimal]]
** 64: [[tetrasexagesimal]]
** 128: [[centoctovigesimal]]<del>??</del>
** 256: <del>ducentahexaquinquagesimal?</del> [[ducentohexaquinquagesimal]]
** 512: <del>pentacentaduodecimal??</del> [[quingentoduodecimal]]

* Zero Google Books hits; zero Google Groups hits. Words that only appear in lists, and not in usage, are not for us. The correct and standard term is "base 128". I have never seen such a base used by anyone for anything. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 18:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
** Yes, I cannot find much on Google either.  The only citations for "ducentahexaquinquagesimal" I can find seem to be from Wikipedia, for which the entry is marked as missing a citation.  Even if the terms are not in usage though, they can still be added in a Wiktionary Appendix for reference.  The naming system seems fairly systematic to create new names for arbitrary bases, as I did with 128 and 512, but I am not sure of the origins or formalism of the naming system.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 18:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
** Other than Wikipedia, this is the best citation that I can find: <code>http://www.mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/60405.html</code>, which additionally cites "Schwartzman S (1994). ''The Words of Mathematics: an etymological dictionary of mathematical terms used in English'' {{ISBN|0-88385-511-9}}."  I don't have access to the book cited, but the prefixes listed on the webpage seem to confirm "centoctovigesimal" as the non-numerical term for base 128.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
*** "Centoctovigesimal" (I miswrote it as "uncentoctovigesmal" earlier) does have one citation on Google: [http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=1371&st=90].  Not sure if the poster there is the same as user "{{ping|double sharp}}" here on Wiktionary.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
**** Yes, it is me. I got it from <code>http://www.numberbases.com/terms/basename.html</code>, as you cited. I'm not entirely sure if the adoption is widespread enough to justify putting them here, but realistically it could not get much higher for bases like this. [[User:Double sharp|Double sharp]] ([[User talk:Double sharp|talk]]) 02:43, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

===appendix===

* I have gone ahead and created "[[Appendix:Number bases]]."  If anyone has any additional resources on how to systematically name number bases higher than 100 (in particular bases 128, 256, 512, and 1024), please add them to the talkpage there.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 21:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
** I just found this, there apparently is at least one consistent system for naming bases of arbitrary number, the Lamadrid system, which is also cited here [http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/ar/t745.htm]: <code>http://www.numberbases.com/terms/basename.html</code>.  In the Lamadrid system then, base 128 is [[centoctovigesimal]], base 256 is [[ducentohexaquinquagesimal]], base 512 is [[quingentoduodecimal]], and base 1024 is [[milletetravigesimal]].  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 22:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[beshit]] ==

Is it vulgar? --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 22:18, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
: Perhaps it should also be marked as ''rare'' or ''archaic''. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 08:04, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[Saare County]] and others ==

[[User:BD2412]] recently added a bunch of entries for Estonian counties, all with "County" at the end of the name. I'm wondering, firstly, if they are not known better by their Estonian names (e.g. {{m|en|Saaremaa}}), but also whether this combination is SOP or not. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 22:53, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

:=[[Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion#McClain_County]]? —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 22:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I think this is different, though. The US counties are rarely if ever used without "County". I'm not sure if that's also the case with Estonian counties. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 22:56, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
* A few things on this. I created them because [[Saare County]] is on Robert Ullmann's list of missing red links. Although they are called "counties" they are top-level administrative divisions, and therefore the equivalent of U.S. states; it hardly seems fair that we would include U.S. counties, but exclude state-level subdivisions from another country. If they are ''sometimes'' used with "County" (all the Wikipedia articles are so titled), then they would at least be legitimate alternative forms. [[User:BD2412|<i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:58, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
** Wikipedia articles can be SoP though, so that doesn't help us here. What I'd be more interested in is whether English speakers really do use these "County" names or if they're something Wikipedia writers invented. I would just call it {{m|en|Saaremaa}} myself. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 23:04, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
*** Google Books returns a few thousand hits for "Saare County"; whether or not it is the best usage, it is attested as a unit. [[User:BD2412|<i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 23:06, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
**** Ok, that is one thing down. What about the name {{m|en|Saare}} alone, is that ever used? The funny thing about this is that in Estonian, {{m|et|saare}} is a case form, the lemma being {{m|et|saar||island}}. So it seems like the creators of {{m|en|Saare County}} just tore off the Estonian word {{m|et|maa}} and replaced it with {{m|en|county}} regardless of Estonian grammar. The names without {{m|et|maa}} are never used in Estonian to refer to these counties, it would be like using {{m|en||Eng}} alone to refer to England. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 23:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
***** These aren't ==Estonian== entries. [[User:BD2412|<i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 00:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
****** I'm aware. I just find it striking that whoever coined the term knew enough Estonian to analyse it as (name) + maa, yet not enough to recognise that {{m|et|saare}} is a genitive form. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 01:04, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
******* Well whoever did it, it seems to be in use since about 1991. [[User:BD2412|<i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 23:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== Spanish {{l|es|coquizar}}, {{l|es|coquificar}} ==

* "To use heat to decompose high molecular weight hydrocarbons, in order to obtain [[petroleum coke]]" ([https://es.wiktionary.org/wiki/coquificar]). Is there an English verb for this? [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 03:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
** [[cokify]]?  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 04:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
*** "Cokify" is used in the translation for French "''[[cokéfier]]''," and there is also "[[coking]]" ("to [[coke]]"), but that seems to be a different context.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 04:07, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
*** "Coking" is the term used on "<code>[[wikipedia:petroleum coke]]</code>."  It would have to rely on context though to refer to either the production of the coal byproduct ([[coke]]) or the petroleum byproduct (also coke).  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 04:12, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
**** Thanks. I guess it's better just to provide the gloss rather than rely on a potentially inaccurate one word translation. [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 17:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[squad]], [[section]], [[platoon]], [[company]], etc. ==

Shouldn't we try to organise these terms? --[[Special:Contributions/193.190.242.4|193.190.242.4]] 15:52, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== Turkish proverb in usage examples for "alan": noun or adjective sense? ==

I just stumbled upon [[alan]] and the Turkish section has the same proverb, "Atı alan Üsküdar'ı geçti", as a usage example both for adjectival usage (in the only present sense, with translation "The one who is the recipient of the horse has already passed Üsküdar. (It is too late to do anything; you have missed the train.)") and noun usage (in sense 2, with translation "[The person] who took has passed Üsküdar. (Too late to do anything about it, as the chance has been missed.)"). While I see that the senses are very close, using the same usage example for both, and with different translations, seems fishy to me. From the translation it seems clear that this is an example of the noun sense, and analyzing word-by-word gives "horse (acc.)-recipient-Üsküdar (unknown case, I have no inflection table at [[Üsküdar]] or at [[wikt:tr:Üsküdar]])-passed (simple past, third person singular)", which reinforces the impression that this is a noun usage, and that a more appropriate translation would be "The person who received the horse has passed Üsküdar". This means that the usage example for the adjective sense is missing, and the translation for the noun sense had better be changed to include "the horse". I will do this, but I cannot provide a new example for the adjective sense. Can someone do that for me? Also, is this "alan" a passive active participle that can be used as adjective or noun or is it a verbal noun that can be used as an adjective? [[User:MGorrone|MGorrone]] ([[User talk:MGorrone|talk]]) 16:35, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
: I'm guessing that this is a present participle of [[almak]] (and ''Üsküdar'ı'' is the accusative).
: Turkish participles AFAIK can be used both attributively (as an adjective) and substantively (as a noun), you are right in noting that the example displays a substantive usage, but it should arguably be listed under a single ''participle'' or ''verb'' heading and linked to the main entry anyway. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 20:01, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:: However, we don't seem to list -an participles as verb forms currently. {{ping|Anylai}}, could you tell me the reasoning behind this convention, are such words treated as independent form? [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 20:09, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::: It is not a verbal noun, -an makes adjectives, although there is not a very clear line between adjectives and nouns or adjectives and adverbs in Turkish.
:::Let's take a look at another sense of [[almak|al-]] and derive alan in a different sense. Using the sense "to buy"; 
:::''alan kişi (buying person)'', 
:::''Alan razı, veren razı.'' (the buying (person) is willing, the selling/giving (person) is willing). The second one is a proverb, meaning "mind your own business".
::: I guess we need some sort of a template, otherwise we can never get out of the complexity of -an, -en creates, it is very productive and meanings will depend on context. See above, ''alan'' in the second example can mean "buyer". Well sometimes words get specific senses, I guess they can be mentioned separately. I wish I were competent enough in this subject to decide on whether it is past or passive active participle. --[[User:Anylai|Anylai]] ([[User talk:Anylai|talk]]) 20:29, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Thanks for the response {{reply to|Anylai}}. My approach to participles/converbs and other non-lemma forms in Mongolian is to omit such nuances or even a translation, and merely link the lemma form and the suffix, the user should provide their own knowledge of syntax and grammar of a language to use the dictionary properly (I try to give a bit of that in the suffix entries however). See [[баяжсаар]] and [[-саар]] to see what I mean. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 20:53, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== Dutch participles ==
{{ping|CodeCat}}, {{ping|Lingo Bingo Dingo}}, {{ping|KIeio}}: Inspired by the paragraph above this: We don't treat participles as verb forms in Dutch either. I'm not sure if that's good, but at least it should be standardized between languages. Right now German [[gelogen]] and Dutch idem are different parts of speech, although there's not the slightest difference in how they're used. (Except that in Dutch you can say thinks like ''na gegeten te hebben'', but I don't think this is a factor here.) So may I ask to hear your arguments? [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
: To call it merely a verb form would ignore the fact that participles behave like adjectives as well. That's what the different header is meant to signify. To call it a verb while giving it an adjective inflection table is weird. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 20:58, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Okay. Thank you. I don't think I agree, though. Adjectives can be nouns and adverbs, as well. In Dutch they even have different nominal inflections (with the ''-en'' form; the ''-s'' form has been called nominal as well). The point for me is that participles are always derived from verbs. That's what makes them participles and hence verb forms. I suppose you will answer that it makes them ''deverbal derivatives'', but that doesn't seem to be justified when half of the conjugations requires this form to be used. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 21:04, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::: IMO, the formatting of Dutch entries is good, but participles should be categorized under verb forms in our cat tree hierarchy. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 21:15, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: What about other languages that use the "Participle" header, such as Latin? If we're going to phase this header out, we should do so for all languages. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 21:16, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Actually now I see that particles are already categorized as verb forms.
::::: In case I wasn't clear, I do like the participle header. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 21:27, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: I didn't see that either. I admit that it makes the situation a bit different. I found it particularly strange that they should be lemmas, but they aren't. Still, there should be a consistent policy for at least all continentenal West Germanic languages. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 21:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: I also like the Participle header and use it in a wide variety of languages. However, I think "accelerated page creation" or whatever it's called with the green links automatically inserts a ===Verb=== header for participles, which is why so many participles (and probably not just in German) are labeled Verb. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 22:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: {{ping|Angr}} Part of the reason is probably that for English entries, we have one definition for both the past tense (which is called "simple past" for English for some reason) and past participle. And with English being the oldest language on Wiktionary, it probably set the practice for later languages. I think Latin and perhaps Ancient Greek were the first ones to use Participle, and I've certainly adopted the practice for Dutch based on those languages. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 21:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
::::::::: I believe the "simple" in "simple past" refers to morphological simplicity- the tenses based on participles, etc. are compound tenses. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 03:20, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[gelogen]] ==
By the way, can Dutch say the equivalent of ''Das ist gelogen!'' to mean "That's a lie!" or ''gelogenes Alter'' to mean "an age that's been lied about"? I think we have to consider those usages a real adjective, and not just the past participle of {{m|de|lügen}}. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 22:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:''Dat is gelogen'', yes. Do you think really think this is an adjective? It's the same as: ''Das ist ausgedacht. Das ist bestätigt. Das ist richtig gerechnet.'' I don't know the exact grammatical term for this is, but it tends to be considered a second form of the perfect tense: ''Der Kuchen ist gegessen.'' ("The cake is eaten.", i.e. "gone"), versus: ''Der Kuchen ist gegessen worden.'' ("The cake has been eaten.", i.e. "someone ate it".) The thing is that in Dutch there's no distinction. Both would be: ''Het gebak is gegeten.'' — The adjectival use is rare in Dutch, but it's also rather rare in German. This could be an adjective since you can't generally construe ''lügen'' with a direct object. So that could be the point. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 22:28, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:: The term I've seen used for this construction in German is [[stative passive]]. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 22:45, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Yes, thanks. I googled "static perfect" and found nothing. Yours is right. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 22:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
: Well, maybe the direct-object argument refers to the first usage as well. But only in this verb then, not with transitive verbs. Alternatively one could say that ''lügen'' is occasionally used transitively. ''Er hat die Geschichte gelogen'' instead of ''erlogen'' is a bit doubtful to my ears, but definitely not impossible. Descriptively speaking. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 22:40, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:<strike>Yet another way would be to read "''das ist gelogen''" as an impersonal passive. Then it underlying sense wouldn't be "That has been lied about", but rather "They who said it lied." [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</strike> <small>No, this might work for "''das ist gelogen''", but not when the subject is not a neuter pronoun.</small> [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 22:56, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:: The main reason I think this is a real adjective is that {{m|de|lügen}} is an intransitive verb; that's the difference to ''Das ist ausgedacht. Das ist bestätigt. Das ist richtig gerechnet. Der Kuchen ist gegessen.'' Could you call a conversation held on the phone ''ein telefoniertes Gespräch''? —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 23:11, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Yes, I realized. Only instead of "transitive" I said "construed with a direct object". Yes, you're probably right, as I implied somewhat unclearly in my last not stricken answer above. Of course, you couldn't say ''ein telefoniertes Gespräch''. I did mention that ''lügen'' can sometimes be transitive. However, this latter construction is (prescriptively at least) nonstandard, while ''das ist gelogen'' is not at all. So, yes, we should probably have that as an adjective. I just didn't realize at first that you were speaking about the word "gelogen" specifically. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 00:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Done. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 00:58, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

== Meriare? ==

Is the Italian entry {{m|it|meriare}} some kind of dialectal term or something, because I can't seem to verify its existence in standard dictionaries? [[User:Word dewd544|Word dewd544]] ([[User talk:Word dewd544|talk]]) 23:16, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
: It seems to be Tuscan http://kielipiha.blogspot.rs/2013/06/meriggiare-curioso-e-raccolto.html "''Una variante toscana di meriggiare è [http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/meria_res-499031c6-0025-11de-9d89-0016357eee51/ meriare].''" [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 23:31, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[colonist]] ==

The two definitions "A person who is a founder of a colony" and "An original member of a colony" do not seem distinct. Our definitions of ''[[colony]]'' are also suboptimal. [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 01:36, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
: I see it as differentiating specific creators of the colony from the general people who moved to the colony to live/work there. ''[[User:Hillcrest98|Anti-Gamz]]'' '''''[[Special:Contributions/Hillcrest98|Dust]]''''' ([[User talk:Hillcrest98|There's Hillcrest!]]) 14:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

== arabic definite article ==

Hi, in [[حق#Etymology_3]] we find 
         (in the plural, law) rights, claims, legal claims (الْحُقُوق — law, jurisprudence). 
The lexicographic treatment of الـ definite art. is quite complex, and usually overlooked, yet I think it would enrich the wiktionary to add in the descriptions its definiteness if necessary, e.g. 
         (in the '''definite''' plural, law)
Granted, I do not know whether حقوق may be used withouth it meaning 'law, jurisprudence science' (the examples appearing in other entries seem to corroborate it) --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 14:02, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

: If you mean that under {{m|ar|اَل}}, we could give some basic (!) information about how the article is used in Arabic, then yes, that may be a good idea. It's not that complex actually, pretty much the same as in Romance languages. Except that it's also used with adjectives, of course. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 18:33, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
: But maybe you don't mean that. Er, yes, sometimes it may be worthwile to add a note that a particular use is always definite. Most of the time, grammar already implies it, but we can add notes when we think it helpful. I've seen that being done in other languages, too. [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I think it might be incorrect to use the word "always". I'm sure there are cases where {{m|ar||حقوق}} is used in the indefinite with this meaning (it's certainly used in the construct state, but the resulting construct is also usually definite). --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 18:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

== Finnish "kauaksi" ==

[[kauaksi]] has only one sense:

Adverb

# To [[far away]].

Is this entry OK? It could be just me, but I don't think that definition sounds like normal English.

Going out on a limb: if it's an adverb, should it be [[distantly]]? --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 15:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
: I suspect what it means is [[far away]] but with motion towards a far-away place, i.e. "he's going far away" but not "he's living far away". {{ping|Hekaheka}}, what say you? —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 15:23, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:: That seems to be the case. Compare {{m|fi|kaukana}}. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 15:33, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
::: In that case, "towards far away" might be a clearer definition. [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 16:48, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: That doesn't sound like good English to me. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 17:43, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Neither does "to far away". In fact it's very tempting to interpret that as a misspelling of "too". --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 18:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I think it is translated into English as "far". In English the difference between being far away and going far away must be inferred from the context. In Finnish there's different word for "in a faraway place" ([[kaukana]]) and "to a faraway place" ([[kauas]], [[kauaksi]]). "From far away", btw., is {{m|fi|kaukaa}} in Finnish. I have edited the entry. Is it clear now? --[[User:Hekaheka|Hekaheka]] ([[User talk:Hekaheka|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
: Perhaps a usage note could be helpful. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 08:23, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
:: This is a standard thing in Finnish. I don't think we want to have to put usage notes everywhere this happens. Someone with a basic knowledge of Finnish will already know that the translative case indicates a change of state. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 13:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
::: I see. [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 17:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[dry hump]] ==

Is [[dry hump]] a hyponym of [[dry run]]? --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 16:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

: Not that I know of. Why did you think so? [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 18:10, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping|Equinox}}: I'm trying to broaden my vocabulary; to that end I make as many associations as possible. This one was a bit off, though --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 15:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

== Confusion of different kinds of sentence-modifying adverbs - reason for the objection to "hopefully"? ==

I just put this on the talk page for "hopefully":

Some sentence-modifying adverbs "really mean" "it is x that," e.g.:

Naturally, she dyed her hair. (It is natural that she dyed her hair.)

Unfortunately, he died. (It is unfortunate that he died.)

You can't say, "It is hopeful that the war will be over soon," therefore, "Hopefully, the war will be over soon" is wrong.

But other sentence-modifying adverbs describe the manner in which the statement is made:

Frankly, he annoyed me. ("Frankly speaking" or "I tell you frankly.") (I don't think anyone would claim that this means, "He told me exactly what he thought of my daughter's singing.")

Confidentially, its aroma leaves much to be desired. ("I tell you confidentially")

Briefly, he says she's a fake. ("To be brief") (I'm summarizing his eighteen volumes.)

Truthfully(!!!!), I haven't started it yet. (Nobody seems to object to this one.)

(It is frank that? It is confidential that? It is brief that?)

The "incorrect" use of hopefully seems to me entirely analogous.
{{unsigned|Kostaki mou|18:52, 5 April 2017}}

: You ''can'' say "It is hopeful that the war will be over soon." and you can "It is truthful that I haven't started it yet." --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 19:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

::You ''can'' say anything.  These are hardly idiomatic and the first changes the meaning. [[User:Kostaki mou|Kostaki mou]] ([[User talk:Kostaki mou|talk]]) 19:36, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

::: Of course it's not idiomatic and hardly anyone ''would'' say it, but it does not change the meaning and grammatically it makes sense. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 19:44, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: I agree with Kostaki that it changes the meaning. "It is hopeful": what is? It's not like the other sentences. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 19:48, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

::::: Thanks!  Also, "truthfully" seems to be more logically analyzed as "truthfully speaking" or "I tell you truthfully" than "it is truthful that."  People do say "it is true that," but not "it is truthful that."  The meaning is not quite the same though.  [[User:Kostaki mou|Kostaki mou]] ([[User talk:Kostaki mou|talk]]) 20:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

== aforementioned (alternate pronunciation) ==

The pronunciation given (/əˌfoː(ɹ)ˈmɛn.ʃənd/) is the only one I have seen in dictionaries. In recent years I have heard the pronunciation "/ˌæ.fə(ɹ)ˈmɛn.ʃənd/" ("AFFermentioned")from several people. Any idea when that came into use? {{unsigned|Kostaki mou|23:26, 5 April 2017 (UTC)}}
: I've heard that pronunciation too (and find it quite frustrating). I don't know when it arose. It probably indicates that the speaker isn't aware of the morphology of {{m|en|afore}}, or they would destress the prefix {{m|en|a-}}. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 00:31, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
::My guess is that it's an overcorrection based on pronunciations like "AP-li-ka-bl" (for "applicable") and "FOR-mi-da-bl" (for "formidable") (both of which I myself use) and "DES-pi-ka-bl" (for "despicable") (which I don't). Many people pronounce any or all of these words with the accent on the second syllable, which seems to be most accepted for "despicable" and least accepted for "formidable". [[User:Kostaki mou|Kostaki mou]] ([[User talk:Kostaki mou|talk]]) 21:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
:::I think I've figured it out:  It's by analogy with "affirmation"!  Admittedly, it is a bit clumsy to have two accented syllables following each other.  Still, "AFFerMENtioned" grates on my ears in a way that "AFFerMAtion" does not.  (I don't think anyone says, "af-FER-MA-tion.")  I suppose it's because the displacement of the accent in "AFFerMENtioned" alters the vowel, while in "AFFerMAtion" it doesn't.  [[User:Kostaki mou|Kostaki mou]] ([[User talk:Kostaki mou|talk]]) 18:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
::::Also, I don't think anyone says, "AFFersaid" or "ABBuvmentioned."  [[User:Kostaki mou|Kostaki mou]] ([[User talk:Kostaki mou|talk]]) 19:11, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

== [[Baptism]]? ==

Is the [[Baptist]] religion referred to as "Baptism" in English? (In German, we do have [[Baptismus]], but it may be an independent [back?]formation from "Baptist".) [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 05:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
: I don't think so. Baptism only refers to the ceremony. —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 06:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I've used both "Baptism" and "[[baptistry|Baptistry]]" jokingly to refer to the Baptist denomination, but in fact, neither word has that meaning. You have to just say "Baptist denomination/faith/beliefs", etc. Actually, [[Baptistism]] is attestable, but it's very rare. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 19:14, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

== كَسْلَى ==

Hi, in the declension table of [[كسلان]] the form [[كسلى]] seems to be both msc. pl. and fem. singular. Could sb. confirm this? I cannot find it in any grammatical resource. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 07:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

== Figurative senses of "[[warm]]" ==

I think we're missing figurative senses, as in {{google|warm piano sound}}. —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 08:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
: I took a stab [[User:Leasnam|Leasnam]] ([[User talk:Leasnam|talk]]) 22:14, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[laugh on the other side of one's face]] ==

What does it mean? --[[User:Sonovobić|Sonovobić]] ([[User talk:Sonovobić|talk]]) 23:13, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

: If you tell someone that they will laugh on the other of their face, you're saying that something bad is going to happen to them and they won't laugh like they are now. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 23:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I know it as [[laugh out of the other side of one's mouth]]. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 14:36, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[:Category:en:Scouting]] ==

There are a LOT of Scouting-related terms that are attested, and I keep adding ones that blow my mind that they weren't here already, such as [[merit badge]]. I propose creating the new category [[:Category:en:Scouting]], and appending Scouting terms with the new label "Scouting", which will automatically add [[:Category:en:Scouting]] to the page. [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 00:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

: Yep. Don't forget [[Venturer Scout]], [[woggle]], and [[dyb]]! [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 00:26, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

:: I have created [[User:PseudoSkull/Scouting]]. A mess, and contains some likely entries, although I suppose some of them may be SOP. Could someone look over them from time to time? Oh, and scouting terms seem to have a lot of alternative forms. [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 00:59, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[philosophistic]] ==

This entry has one sense:

# Exhibiting a love of [[sophistry]] or logical reasoning; '''[[philosophical]]'''; may include [[fallacious]] reasoning.

Is it OK? The part "may include fallacious reasoning" looks off to me. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 07:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

: I'm not personally familiar with this word. Maybe it's an RFV matter? [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 01:29, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

:: It seems rare / obsolete. [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 01:30, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

::: I created an RFV for it. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 21:23, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[neighborhood]] ==

Definition 9 currently reads "(topology) The infinitesimal open set of all points that may be reached directly from a given point." The part about "may be reached directly" is probably a handwavy way of saying "[[connected space]]", but that seems wrong. I have no idea what "infinitesimal" is supposed to mean in this context, and I am not sufficiently confident in my math-fu to remove it summarily.__[[User:Gamren|Gamren]] ([[User talk:Gamren|talk]]) 18:10, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

: [[w:Neighbourhood (mathematics)]] gives two definitions:
:: Intuitively speaking, a neighbourhood of a point is a set of points containing that point where one can move some amount away from that point without leaving the set.
:: If <math>X</math> is a [[topological space]] and <math>p</math> is a point in <math>X</math>, a '''neighbourhood''' of <math>p</math> is a [[subset]] <math>V</math> of <math>X</math> that includes an [[open set]] <math>U</math> containing <math>p</math>.
: It seems like one of those math words that you can either give a clear English definition, or a precisely correct one, but not both.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] ([[User talk:Prosfilaes|talk]]) 02:53, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
:: How about "A set containing a given point and an [[open set]] around it"? Our definition of open set is pretty nice so I'd be happy with sending the reader over there.  [[User:Crom daba|Crom daba]] ([[User talk:Crom daba|talk]]) 18:43, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

::: {{reply to|Crom daba}} that seems to be exactly definition 8. For all I know, definition 9 should just be deleted. The only mathematical sense of "neighborhood" I know is definition 8, i.e. the one you gave. For the moment, I fixed the "[[open]] [[set]]" to "[[open set]]" (single link to "open set" instead of double link to "open" and "set"). I leave it to someone who is more expert in maths than me (and maybe has studied it in English rather than Italian) to remove or otherwise edit that definition. [[User:MGorrone|MGorrone]] ([[User talk:MGorrone|talk]]) 12:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
:::: I think the difference between definition 8 and definition 9 is whether you're referring to ''a'' neighborhood of a point or ''the'' neighborhood of a point. For example, if I want to say that <math>f(x)</math> does not take the value <math>0</math> near a point <math>p</math>, I could say that it does not take the value <math>0</math> in the neighborhood of <math>p</math>, which would mean that <math>f</math> is nonzero on some open set containing <math>p</math>. This use may be more common when explaining intuition than when stating theorems rigorously. [[User:Germyb|Germyb]] ([[User talk:Germyb|talk]]) 19:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

== pushed out the door, he returns through the window ==

The above is what we now have in Czech [[vyhodíte ho dveřmi, vrátí se oknem]]. {{google|"he returns through the window"}} suggests to me this is not a native English idiom, or is it? Is there a native idiom? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|talk]]) 19:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
:I've certainly never heard it in English. What does it mean? —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 20:53, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
*{{ping|Dan Polansky}}, is it equivalent to {{m|en|fall seven times, stand up eight}}? —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 20:34, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
*: @[[User:Metaknowledge|Metaknowledge]]: Probably not entirely; the saying you quote seems to describe a response to adversity in general rather than a response to human rejection of a proposal in particular. Furthermore, the Czech saying seems to complain of someone's persistence, whereas the quoted fall-saying seems to commend it, but I do not really know. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|talk]]) 11:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
* It seems to me that it means that someone is impossible to get rid of. Get rid of them one way, and they just sneak back in another way. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 20:44, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
** That seems accurate. It seems to indicate the behavior of someone who does not get easily rejected; once their proposal is rejected, they come up with a modification of the proposal, doing that again and again, or they come up with a proposal that merely appears to be different. However, I do not use the Czech saying and the quotations that I find do not provide all that much context from which to extract the meaning so I am not really sure. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|talk]]) 11:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[side]] ==

It seems that the sense in "it was lying on its side" is currently missing. Sense 5 comes closest, but that refers to the human body. It could probably be generalised somewhat? —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 23:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
:Until I added it {{diff|37527727|text=13 months ago}}, we didn't even have that sense! Feel free to generalize it, or add a new sense along the lines of "the corresponding part of an animal's body". —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 15:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
:: It can apply to objects too. A spinning top can also lie on its side, for example. So I'm not sure how to define that accurately, and there are people here who are better with English definitions than I am. Non-English is more my thing here. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 18:47, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Isn't that just sense 2? A spinning top doesn't really have a front and back to distinguish from its sides, the way a human or animal body does. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 11:40, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Although, come to think of it, a house does, and we do speak of the ''side'' of a house as distinct from its front and back. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 11:41, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

==[[luminescence]]==

Is there a less technical definition of the word that we're missing, or am I thinking of another word? [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 01:26, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[can of worms]] ==

Not sure why we need two separate definitions here. Can't we merge them? --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 15:30, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

== Category:Arabic_verbal_nouns ==

Hi, unlike the categories for the rest of the verbal forms, the verbal nouns are not grouped in different categories according to the [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Arabic_verbs#Form_I forms] they belong to. Could this ordering be systematically implemented? --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 16:26, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
: I think the same is true for participles: there's no category for Form I participles, for example. I wonder if it would be desirable or possible to make {{temp|ar-act-participle}} and {{temp|ar-pass-participle}} automatically determine the form and categorize. If not, editors would have to go through and add a {{para|form}} parameter to all instances of these templates in order for them to categorize. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 23:35, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Verbal nouns of the form I are unpredictable and numerous, hence its priority. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 07:01, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

== (not) [[be a patch on]] ==

"The second film isn’t a patch on the first.": Aren't we missing this sense of [[patch]]? --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 20:57, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

: We do have {{m|en|not a patch on}}. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 17:21, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
::Sorry, hadn't looked hard enough. I'm a bit baffled by the "preposition" header btw. --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 18:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

== Pronunciation for [[Mandarin]] and [[mandarin]] ==

Is there an actual difference between {{IPAchar|/ˈmæn.də.ɹɪn/}} (on [[Mandarin]]) and {{IPAchar|/ˈmæn.dəɹ.ɪn/|/ˈmæn.dɚ.ɪn/}} (on [[mandarin]])? —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 04:10, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
:No, just a difference in transcription habits. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 17:28, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
:: In rhotic US English, the /ɹ/ of the /ɚ/ and /ɹ/ at the onset of the last syllable is the same /ɹ/, which makes the transcription tricky. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:50, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Should there be some sort of convention we should stick to to make things less confusing? It's really odd to have different transcriptions for basically the same word. —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 04:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

== heteronym ==

Is the [[pontificate#Etymology 2]] pronounciation actually what is heard? It sounds like that the stress(es) is applied on the first or the last sylllable. [[User:Sobreira|Sobreira]] ►〓 [[User_talk:Sobreira|(''parlez'')]] 06:46, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
: The stress is kind of ambiguous, but I'm hearing the stress on the second syllable. —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 07:29, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

== About Punktum definition ==

Punktum is a definition of when i close a conversation without any respond to recive,or when i say about a thing it is done and do not need further work. Thank you. Robert Dioszegi.

== [[catalog]], [[catalogue]] ==

Now that we have, I very much hope, abandoned the total nonsense of maintaining two entirely separate sets of definitions for mere spelling variants, can anyone see any special reason, before I merge them, for preserving these two separately? [[User:Mihia|Mihia]] ([[User talk:Mihia|talk]]) 01:03, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
: You're sure this isn't a like the distinction between {{m|en|program}} and {{m|en|programme}}, where the former is an alternate spelling, but also has unique senses? [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 04:16, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I don't know. However, even if any unique senses exist, these can be handled as exceptions, with notes or whatever. It is no reason to duplicate all the common definitions. [[User:Mihia|Mihia]] ([[User talk:Mihia|talk]]) 03:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
::: That wouldn't make sense, because if the sense wasn't attested in one spelling, or if it was really rare, then it would be inaccurate to put it under on the other page. That doesn't jive with what we've done in the past. [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 03:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

== monumental ==

* What is the word to describe writing systems that are used for monuments?  E.g. Egyptian hieroglyphs or Roman majuscule letters.  It is not "monumental."  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 06:06, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
** I believe it's "[[epigraphic]]". [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 07:38, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
** Thanks!  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 08:29, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[samlandano]] ==

Is there evidence that the stress really should be on the antepenultimate syllable rather than on the penultimate? [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 10:18, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Aryamanarora}} added that, no idea why. Esperanto is perfectly regular, so I've replaced it with {{temp|eo-IPA}}. —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 20:29, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping|Metaknowledge}} I must have done it when I was learning a little Esperanto, and as a novice I though the stress would be where I kept it. I was not aware of {{temp|eo-IPA}}, I'll be sure to use it if I ever make any Esperanto entries. —[[User:Aryamanarora|Aryamanarora]] <sup>''([[User talk:Aryamanarora|मुझसे बात करो]])''</sup> 20:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[Bluetooth]] ==

An anon changed this from Translingual to English. Is that right? [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 21:04, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
: It's wrong of him to have changed it. It should have been RFV'd or something. Other than that, he might be right that it should be English. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 21:38, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Different languages have different pronunciations and possibly even different spellings/scripts for this word, so it can hardly be translingual. Also, the etymology is wrong, it's named after {{w|Harald Bluetooth}}. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 21:40, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
:::This last consideration hasn't prevented us from having Translingual entries for taxa. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 21:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: The scientific names are properly translingual, aren't they? Would a Russian writer write ''Vulpes zerda'' or would they transliterate it? What about Chinese? —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 21:45, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Not sure about Chinese, but in Russian you would either write ''Vulpes zerda'' (in Latin letters), or use a Russian scientific ''translation'' of the Latin name. Anyway, I've fixed the etymology of [[Bluetooth]]. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 21:55, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::I thought the issue was about pronunciations. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 22:04, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

:* Are the three derived terms "bluejacker", "bluejacking", "bluesnarfing" translingual? Likely not, even in Wiktionary they are English and not translingual. So if the English terms are given as Translingual derived terms, then it doesn't fit. With English instead of Translingual it works.
:* According to [[WT:Translations]] "Translation tables are to be given for English words only". That is, as there is a translation table, it has to be English and not Translingual, or the translations would have to be removed. In contrary to that, [[WT:ELE#Translations]] states "Translations should be given in English entries, and also in Translingual entries for taxonomic names". As Bluetooth isn't a taxonomic term, this exception doesn't fit here. So again it makes more sense to change the language than to delete information.
:* [[WT:About Translingual]] doesn't have ''Bluetooth'' as accepted or rejected, but it's likely rather to be rejected like place names and musical terms than to be accepted like taxonomic and chemical terms.
:* As there was a Translingual and a Portuguese term without any special Portuguese meanings, the Portuguese term seemed to be redundant as that could fit under Translingual (although a Portuguese entry would be permitted by [[WT:About Translingual#Other languages]] even if there is a Translingual term). Alternatively instead of having or removing a redundant Portuguese section it makes more sense to change Translingual to the more fitting English.
:* Bluetooth does have a gender in many languages - but the Translingual entry didn't mention any. So like with the other points it rather was an English entry.<br /> Also, if it would be Translingual, how should the genders be mentioned? "g=m|g2=none|g3=n" as in many Romance and Slavic languages it's masculine, in English and some other genderless languages it's genderless and in German it's neuter? That doesn't seem to be a good idea. A usage note would work, but would have been missing.
:@Wikitiki89: Changes of languages happened before (misleadingly from Translingual to Latin, correctly from Latin to Translingual or English) and, as least AFAIK, often without having a discussion anywhere.
:@CodeCat: Translingual doesn't mean it's used in all languages. So a taxonomic term in a Latin script could be limited to languages with Latin script and it still could be translingual/Translingual. That is, one can ignore languages with non-Latin scripts. BTW as for Chinese, I've once seen a case where they used Chinese characters and added a Latin-script taxonomic term in brackets ([[Talk:jinianum#From Chinese placename ?]]).
:-[[Special:Contributions/84.161.7.226|84.161.7.226]] 20:50, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[計有]] ==

Not sure about the definition. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 02:48, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

== Haplorhini ==

[[Haplorhini]] was just recreated as a valid alternative spelling for [[Haplorrhini]].  A case might be made to reverse this to make "Haplorrhini" the alternative after reading why the [[w:Haplorhini|en-Wiki]] article was renamed on its [[w:Talk:Haplorhini#Spelling|discussion page]]. &nbsp;'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>14:47, 14 April 2017 (UTC)</small>
:Ach, what a mess. Based on multiple measures of commonness, as well as the law of priority, ''Haplorhini'' should be the lemmatised spelling. —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 18:41, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
::Good.  I shall raise the issue at [[species:Village Pump#Haplorhini|Wikispecies]]. &nbsp;'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>22:47, 14 April 2017 (UTC)</small>
:::Thanks for bringing it to our attention. —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 23:55, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
::::Pleasure! and thank ''you'' for an almost instant response and fix! &nbsp;'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>02:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)</small>

== [[be well shot of]], [[get shot of]] ==

We already have the relevant sense of {{l|en|shot}} at 4), but couldn't we create this? --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 21:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

:Is it British? I have not heard it before. It looks similar to [[get shed of]]. [[User:Stephen G. Brown|—Stephen]] <sup>([[User talk:Stephen G. Brown|Talk]])</sup> 03:17, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping|Stephen G. Brown}}: [http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/get+shot+of I found this]. Labeled as "British informal". --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 11:51, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
:::So that's the same as American [[get shed of]]. The American might also be informal. I use it quite often, but I rarely write it. An alternative form of the American phrase is [[get shut of]], which might be dialectal. [[User:Stephen G. Brown|—Stephen]] <sup>([[User talk:Stephen G. Brown|Talk]])</sup> 21:55, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

== [[universal value]] ==

Def might be a bit off: "Something that has the same value or worth for all, or almost all, people." Is the "something" really the value, or is the value a property that the something possesses? [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 00:28, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
:The lead sentence of [[:en:w:Universal value|en-Wiki's]] article: "A value is a universal value if it has the same value or worth for all, or almost all, people."  This appears to say that the "something" is the value.  It might be improved; however, I'm not sure how.  Perhaps "A value that has the same [[worth]] for all, or almost all, people." (?) &nbsp;'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>02:34, 15 April 2017 (UTC)</small>

== [[coitus]] ==

A very specific sense has been added, which is quite plausible but may need a context label, since many uses are hardly that specific (they use sense 2; compare Dictionary.com's similarly broad "sexual intercourse, especially between a man and a woman"). {{temp|lb|en|formal}}? {{temp|lb|en|medicine}}? {{temp|lb|en|law}}? [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 05:14, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

== Opposite of status quo? ==

Is there are word for a status which isn't a status quo? Seems like [[status-non-quo]] might pass the CFI. [[User:Siuenti|Siuenti]] ([[User talk:Siuenti|talk]]) 06:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
: opposite of status quo: [[advancement]], [[progress]]? [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 16:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
:: change? --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 16:31, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[-нулевой суффикс]] ==

I find this strange. I feel it would be like creating an entry [[-null morpheme]], then say that "{{m|en|resurrect}} comes from {{suffix|en|resurrection|null morpheme}}". Take {{m|ru|одурь}}: {{affix|ru|одуре́ть|-нулевой суффикс}}. And there are inappropriate redirects: [[-Ø]], [[...Ø]]. Pinging {{ping|D1gggg}} --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 10:51, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
: Please cite a paragraph where [[о-]] is able to form nouns (from [[дурь]]) without an morpheme.
: [[о-]] is covered by 511, 529, 540.
: Russian morpology is Russian, not English. [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 10:57, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I'm not disputing the existence of a [[w:null morpheme|null morpheme]], merely the way you're implementing it in entries. When you read "{{affix|ru|одуре́ть|-нулевой суффикс}}", the expected result is literally "**{{m|ru|одуре́тьнулевой суффикс}}", which makes no sense --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 11:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
::: True, [[-нулевой суффикс]] is not represented by any characters or sounds.
::: I'm not able to create a page with 0 charaters or use 0 charters to retrieve this linguistic concept or send a link.
::: [[-Ø]] or [[...Ø]] make no sense either, but academic reference using it regardless.
::: Anyone can use these charters to retrieve only relevant results.
::: "нулевой суффикс" and "нулевой аффикс" were used in literature.
::: "-..." is a notation for suffixes used in [[:Template:affix]] [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 11:25, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: This is English Wiktionary, so we don't use Russian terminology in Cyrillic script in etymologies. This is a term for a concept, so use an equivalent English term. As mentioned above, you're getting levels of representation confused: to paraphrase [[w:The Treachery of Images]], Ceci n'est pas un morphème à signifiant zéro... [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 17:08, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: I could have sworn I saw an entry like [[-Ø]] here at one point. —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 17:12, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: If we create an entry for zero suffixes, it should be [[-∅]] with the empty set symbol. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 17:22, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: In this particular case though, I'm not sure if there's actually zero suffixation though. The verb has a suffix -e- on the stem which disappears in the noun, so part of the stem is actually ''removed''. Wikipedia calls this a {{w|disfix}}. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 17:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

:We need to fix the entries which link here... [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 21:11, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

::If you write {{l|ru|шить}} + {{l|en|∅}}, the resulting form would still be {{l|ru|шить}}, but with a different meaning. {{l|ru|шить}} + {{l|en|∅}} means there there exists a suffix that has neither form nor sound, but we know it exists because it changes the meaning in a regular way. That is not what is going on with {{l|ru|шов}}. If you're trying to say that {{l|en|∅}} stands for the removal of {{l|ru|-ть}}, the morpheme that marks the infinitive, that's not correct. {{l|ru|шить}} + {{l|en|∅}} does not result in {{l|ru|шов}}. If {{l|ru|шов}} is made from {{l|ru|шить}}, it is made in a different way. The final -в looks like a past-tense [[деепричастие|deeprichastiye]], but that does not explain the vowel о. [[User:Stephen G. Brown|—Stephen]] <sup>([[User talk:Stephen G. Brown|Talk]])</sup> 09:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

{{ping|Stephen G. Brown}} please review 5457400832 as it provides more context on what's going on in РГ-80
* [[шить]] - [[шов]] covered in following books:
** [[d:Q4400457|РГ-80]] § 1078 p 429
** {{ISBN|5457400832}} p 149 refers to РГ-80:
*** 1.1 affixial
**** 1.1.2 root word - 1. flexies ()  2. null-suffixiation, 3. alternation of vovels
We don't have templates to show alternation of vovels. [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 11:11, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

== arabic hamza ==

Hi, I cannot find the rules the community follows regarding the seats for '''ء'''. Shouldn't they appear in [[Wiktionary:About_Arabic]] ?  Furthermore, in that page, regarding ''3. -iyy-, -uww- are used in place of -īy-, -ūw-.'', could sb. please add an example thereof? I think that is not an exception but the formal citation form. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 14:00, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
: The spelling rules don't necessarily belong to language policy pages, such as [[Wiktionary:About_Arabic]] (this is how you should link Wiktionary pages, not the full URL). The seat of hamza is an important rule for writing correctly in Arabic but we would include terms if they didn't follow the rule but were attestable.
: We transliterate [[nisba]] as in {{m|ar|عَرَبِيّ}} with ''-iyy'' (plus any endings), etc., which is different from Hans Wehr dictionary. That's what the statement means. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 14:17, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
::{{reply to|Atitarev}} Where can I find the rules the editors have agreed to follow then? Or at least the orthographic variation they regard as acceptable? --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 14:33, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Any attested Arabic spelling is acceptable. An expert on the language can mark it as slang, irregular spelling, rare, dialectal, etc. As a guide we write out hamza over and under alif أ إ, dots under yaa ي and taa marbuta ة. The other, relaxed spellings are acceptable but treated as alternatives. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 00:22, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
:::{{reply to|Atitarev}} I thought there'd be templates for the different seats of ء, therefore I'd suggest creating them for easy of edition. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 07:35, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Templates, for different seats of hamza? I really don't know what you're asking?!
:::: Initial hamza over alif: {{m|ar|أ}}: {{m|ar|أَجَلّ}} (with "a"), {{m|ar|أُسْتَاذ}} (with "u"); hamza under alif with "i" {{m|ar|إ}}: {{m|ar|إِبْرَة}}
:::: Hamza over alif in the middle of a word {{m|ar|إِمْرَأَة}}
:::: Hamza over yāʾ {{m|ar|ئ}}: {{m|ar|أَسْئِلَة}}
:::: Hamza over wāw {{m|ar|ؤ}}: {{m|ar|لُؤْلُؤَة}}
:::: Stand-alone hamza {{m|ar|ء}}: {{m|ar|شَيْء}}
:::: What templates are you talking about? Do you know how to enter Arabic letters? You don't need templates for entering Arabic. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 11:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[tsiganology]] ==

Should this be labeled as offensive and or obsolete? [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 17:49, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[top of the morning]] ==

The usage notes and context label disagree on whether this is used in Ireland. [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 21:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[schoolman]] and [[Schoolman]] ==

I believe these articles should be merged. It's not clear why there is a capitalized entry as the word is a common noun, not a proper noun. [[User:Aabull2016|Aabull2016]] ([[User talk:Aabull2016|talk]]) 01:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

: Probably yes. There is (although I personally disagree with it) a consensus to keep capitalised variants like [[Pope]] and [[Colonel]], but I doubt this word is used in that way. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 01:28, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

:: So, how would that be done? The capitalized entry could be reworked as a variant if it could be shown to exist, but I'm not sure that's the case (the only capitalized example I've found is in a 16th-century text in which many common nouns are capitalized). So it seems best simply to delete it and move any relevant content into the lower-case entry. [[User:Aabull2016|Aabull2016]] ([[User talk:Aabull2016|talk]]) 02:46, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

== half-plane vs. halfplane vs. half plane: which is most used? ==

I just stumbled upon the [[halfplane]] entry, and was surprised to find [[halfplane]], and not [[half-plane]], which I always used, nor [[half plane]]. Even the alternate forms at [[halfplane]] don't list [[half-plane]] (or anything for that matter). [https://www.google.it/search?q=half-plane&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=sHrzWLyPHcbi8AexmoGQDQ A quick Google search for half-plane] gives both [[half-plane]] and [[half plane]], with the former more common (at least in the first 10 results), and no [[halfplane]] at all. In fact, the first 20 results of [https://www.google.it/search?q=halfplane&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=qHvzWJb9HsXi8Af3k4GgBA Googling halfplane] only have one result with that form: the Wiktionary entry. So is it right to have the entry under what seems to be the least common form, and with no alternate forms section? If not, what should we do about this? I would go for [[half-plane]] as the entry with [[halfplane]] and [[half plane]] as alternate forms. Do you guys agree? [[User:MGorrone|MGorrone]] ([[User talk:MGorrone|talk]]) 14:13, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
: {{R:GNV|halfplane, half plane, half-plane}} suggests [[halfplane]] is the least often used of the three. I moved it to [[half-plane]], which seems very slightly more common than [[half plane]]. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|talk]]) 14:55, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[lot lizard]] etymology ==

It says: "The term was invented by Christopher Echard, the self-proclaimed 'Minister of Filth'." Who is that? I can find nothing on Google. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 14:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
:Ask [https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=lot_lizard&diff=12728739&oldid=11925595 anon]. —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 15:08, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

:: Dubious. I've removed it. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 15:09, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Strong case for RfD, IMO, despite our having [[lounge lizard]]. See definition 6 at [[[[lizard]]]], which I have just added. See [[w:Lot lizard]] and the ''Fairlex Dictionary of Idioms'' (2015) which have it, though with a somewhat different definition. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 18:22, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[أيها]] ==

[[أيها]] I'd like to know which feminine collective term is the following sentence from [[أيها]] referring to (ٱلْعِيرُ?)
 "When addressing a female, a group of females, or (occasionally) a feminine collective noun (فَلَمَّا جَهَّزَهُم بِجَهَازِهِمْ جَعَلَ السِّقَايَةَ فِي رَحْلِ أَخِيهِ ثُمَّ أَذَّنَ مُؤَذِّنٌ أَيَّتُهَا ٱلْعِيرُ إِنَّكُمْ لَسَارِقُونَ), the form أَيَّتُهَا (ʾayyatuhā) is used."  Thanks in advance. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 18:30, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
: [https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/يا-أيها-ألا.2882313/?hl=de This topic] might be helpful. Plural inanimates are always grammatical feminines, so if you talk to objects (theoretically), use the form.--[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 08:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
::: {{reply to|Atitarev}} Thank you, yet I'd still like to know what the term the entry is referring to. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 21:44, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: The example given refers to {{m|ar|عِير}} - "caravan"?.--[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 21:55, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[lick into shape]] ==

How do you use that? "My girlfriend was feeling a bit down in the dumps, so I licked her into shape?" --[[User:Barytonesis|Barytonesis]] ([[User talk:Barytonesis|talk]]) 18:54, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

: Licking into shape isn't simple [[cheer up|cheering up]], but more like discipline or punishment. Your example sentence wouldn't be used for that reason, and probably also because of connotations of oral sex! A book example: "We shall see, before long, how much trouble [the lazy soldiers] brought on Custer, and how he at last licked them into shape." [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 19:14, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

: This expression uses a sense of [[lick]] that seems to derive from the noun sense "A stroke or blow", and is fairly close to the "defeat decisively, particularly in a fight" verb sense. It's basically the same idea as [[whip into shape]], which we don't seem to have yet, either. Both use the metaphor of employing severe, painful punishment to make the object of the verb behave/improve. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 03:02, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:: Hmm, Chambers 1908 has a different etymology: "from the notion that the she-bear gives form to her shapeless young by licking them". [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 18:36, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

== Translations of teal: someone check please! ==

I just stumbled upon the [[teal]] entry, and looked at the translations to be checked. I know neither Serbo-Croatian nor Persian, so I had to come up with tricks. Now, for Persian, I loaded Wikipedia articles in English and saw what the links in the Other Languages sections pointed me to. This way, I obtained the already-present sense 1 [[خوتکا]] (xutkâ), and the sense (2) [[سبز دودی]] (sabz-e dudi), which I added because I saw it "somewhere" -- and now I just saw it's in the color table at [[قهوه‌ای]]. These are, however, not the translations to be checked. I fed those to Google Translate, and "mala divlja patka" yielded "small wild duck", which I confirmed word-by-word with Wiktionary:
# mala is the feminine singular of [[mal]], small;
# dlvlja is the feminine singular of [[divlji]], "wild, savage";
# [[patka]] is "duck".
[[مرغابی جره]] (morghabi-ye jarre) gave "teal" on Google Translate, and [[سبزآبی]] (sabzabi) gave "cyan", with a suggestion to change it to "سبز آبی", which translates instead to "green blue". And indeed, [[سبز]] (sabz) means "green", and [[آبی]] (âbi) means "blue", according to the Wiktionary.

So what should we do about these? Can someone check those (and confirm that those I added are correct)?

PS Why does Persian here on Wiktionary never appear on my computer, except in the article titles? I mean, Arabic works just fine, but Persian is invisible and zero-width, save for article titles, and I can copy-paste it from translation sections and the Search bar (after pasting it there), but the links are not clickable, and to load those Persian Wikipedia articles I had to use "Inspect Element" from Firefox and find the link in there. Any idea why this happens?

EDIT: Persian appears nicely in this discussion, but not at [[آبی]], where Urdu appears just fine. [[User:MGorrone|MGorrone]] ([[User talk:MGorrone|talk]]) 12:05, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[schizophrenic]] - a note from some mental health professionals ==

{{OTRS ticket|9930291|2017041110003446}}

We received a note from a [http://www.onedoor.org.au/ mental health service provider] from Australia concerning our definitions of [[schizophrenic]].  They asked us to consider adding a usage note which highlights the difference between the accepted mental health definition of the term and the more colloquial uses. The full text of their letter (sent to us and several other online dictionaries) is below (by permission).

<pre>Dear Wiktionary,

I am writing to you to seek your support in reducing stigma for those living with a mental illness. One
Door is a non-government organisation who advocate on behalf of people with mental illness.
One Door is concerned over the definition of “schizophrenic” in your dictionary. Currently your
dictionary defines “schizophrenic” as:

Adjective
1. Of or pertaining to schizophrenia.
2. (of a person) Afflicted with schizophrenia; having difficulty with perception of reality.
3. (figuratively) Behaving as if one has more than one personality; wildly changeable.

Despite common practice, the correct usage of the term “schizophrenic” does not refer to multiple or
contrary points of view. In its correct clinical definition, schizophrenia refers to a serious psychiatric
illness characterized by disturbances in thought (such as delusions), perception (such as
hallucinations), and behaviour (such as disorganized speech or catatonic behaviour), by a loss of
emotional responsiveness and extreme apathy, and by noticeable deterioration in the level of
functioning in everyday life.

We believe that the connection of the term schizophrenic and schizophrenia to contradictory
elements further stigmatises an already misunderstood condition.

Although we appreciate that figurative use is not formed by the choice of the dictionary, rather by its
general use, we seek your support through the addition of a usage note along the lines that:
“The non-medical and figurative uses of this word cause some concern to those who are trying to
increase community knowledge of the medical condition of schizophrenia. The general use of the
word to mean ‘more than one personality’ or 'changeable’ is best avoided.”

An inclusion along these lines has been made by several other online dictionaries.

At One Door, we will continue to work to raise public awareness of the incorrect and stigmatising the
use of the word. We appreciate your time and effort.

Yours sincerely,
Dr Ellen Marks
General Manager, Advocacy and Inclusion</pre>

I think that there is some merit to including usage notes on technical terms which have been co-opted into similar but distinct meanings. I am sure there are plenty of other terms in the mental health lexicon which could bear similar scrutiny. - [[User:TheDaveRoss|TheDaveRoss]] 12:50, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

: As with the SI units: we have to go by actual usage, and not what people put in lists of words, or would prefer something to mean. But a usage note might not hurt. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 22:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
:: The medical meaning is used, just not by the general public. I think we'd do well to include the meaning that medical professionals ascribe to the term. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 00:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Note that the word under discussion is {{m|en|schizophrenic}}, not {{m|en|schizophrenia}}, and we do have the definition "Of or pertaining to schizophrenia" at the former (and what seems to be an accurate medical definition at the latter). [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 00:31, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
: A usage note clarifying that the popular definition has its problems is not unreasonable, I see no reason not to honor that request. — [[User:KIeio|Kleio]] ([[User talk:KIeio|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/KIeio|c]]) 01:27, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

: I agree with Equinox and KIeio, but a usage note should have a more neutral tone than the one they propose.
: Re “Although we appreciate that figurative use is not formed by the choice of the dictionary, rather by its general use, [...]”: it’s great to see an organisation that has a grasp on our inclusion criteria instead of the typical “remove it cuz its wrong”! — ''[[User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|Ungoliant]] <sup>([[User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|falai]])</sup>'' 12:10, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
: I'm puzzled that the non-medical sense is labeled "figurative". I don't see what's figurative about it; it would be more accurate to call it colloquial or something. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 00:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I've changed that and added a little usage note. I'm not sure about the wording yet but didn't want this to be buried without any action taken, so if anyone could check it and possibly find a better wording, by all means do so. — [[User:KIeio|Kleio]] ([[User talk:KIeio|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/KIeio|c]]) 06:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[курительный]] (verbs to adjectives in Russian) ==

base verb is кур-и-ть

My question is: do we keep suffixes or do we discard them?
# old: кур- new: -ительн-ый
# old: кур-и new: -тельн-ый
[[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 16:23, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[earth#English|earth]] ==

Forgive me if it's been discussed before, but earth in lower case as a proper noun? It's a sticky point, I think, but I would say no, it isn't. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 20:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)''

: Looks wrong to me too. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 22:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:: We've established before that (for English at least) capitalization is to be ignored when determining whether something is a proper noun. So I'd like to hear the arguments why it should be considered a proper noun in "We saw the Earth from Mars", but not in "We saw the earth from the porthole". --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:59, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

::: My position is that the planet Earth (capital E) is a proper noun, but ''earth'' (small e) is soil, not a planet: like how Mars is a planet but ''mars'' is a verb form of ''mar''. It's just a "misspelling" but with case rather than letters. I realise that's prescriptive but it's based on very intense and very wide reading. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 00:02, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: I think that's grossly inaccurate. The uncapitalized form "the earth" is very frequently used as the name of the planet. See [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+earth+and+the+sun&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= these] [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+sun+and+the+earth&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= two] Ngrams. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 00:15, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: A Google Books search for "blow up the earth" returns results in nearly equal proprtions [[User:Leasnam|Leasnam]] ([[User talk:Leasnam|talk]]) 00:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=blow+up+the+earth&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= Ngrams are more accurate], but you're basically right. They also show how it's changed over time. It seems historically (i.e. before the 1990s) the lower case form was by far more common, but now they are about even. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 00:26, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

::::: Interesting! I'm very surprised. I must have read a rather anomalous set of books. It would be nice to see them broken down by science/astronomy, literature, penny dreadfuls, etc. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 00:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: I remember we previously found that scientific works tend to overcapitalize nouns. You'll find things like "The main types of Eukaryotes are Plants, Animals, and Fungi." --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 00:30, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: It has been my experience that the name of the planet is capitalized far more often in science fiction than in other genres, and least of all in fiction books that don't have a focus on space. Non-fiction books related to astronomy fall somewhere in between, I think (and like Wikitiki says, those kinds of books tend to capitalize a lot of words). But that's just my general impressions. [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 00:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::: You do see capped "the Sun" and "the Moon" quite a bit too, but of course there are other suns and moons; there aren't other earths (in the scientific sense of planet). [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 00:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: My Oxford hard copy gives Earth, Moon and Sun as alternatives for earth, moon and sun respectively, but avoids calling them proper nouns. Some Wiktionarian has obviously decided that they should be, probably based on the fact that other planets such as Jupiter are usually written with a capital letter. Oxford avoids calling these proper nouns also. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 09:50, 19 April 2017 (UTC)''
:::::::::: Does Oxford call anything at all proper nouns? --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 14:44, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::: Apparently not. I checked London, Paris, Amsterdam, New York and some others which are unquestionably proper nouns. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 15:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)''
::::::::: I would think they're proper nouns, not based on capitalization, but just on the fact that they're treated the same way as place names, and each refer to a single object... [[User:Andrew Sheedy|Andrew Sheedy]] ([[User talk:Andrew Sheedy|talk]]) 13:06, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::: I'm afraid I disagree, and consider any noun which can normally be written in lower case as a standard noun. Would you use the same argument for {{m|en|heaven}} / {{m|en|Heaven}} and {{m|en|hell}} / {{m|en|Hell}}? ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 15:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)''
::::::::::: So if I decide to call you donnanz with a lower case letter, that makes it a common noun? --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 16:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::: No, as it's not intended to be a common noun. As some user names (which are a totally different ball game and should be left out of this argument) are written in lower case that is feasible, but you will have a problem with case sensitivity if trying to contact me. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 16:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)''
::::::::::::: What do you mean by "intended to be a common noun". If I write ''the earth'' and "intend" it to be proper noun, why isn't a proper noun? --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:10, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

* "[[earth]]" (uncapitalized) is frequently (and arguably incorrectly) used as a proper noun.  Technically, the usage as a proper noun should always be capitalized.  E.g. "We arrived back on earth." is a common spelling, though it actually should be spelled as "We arrived back on [[Earth]]."  "earth" (uncapitalized) can also be used to refer to any [[earthlike]] ([[Earthlike]]) planet, as in "there could be thousands or millions of [[earths]] (but not Earths) in the Galaxy," from the usage of "earth" as "soil," i.e. indicating planets with organic life and plant debris to form soils (so that the Planet Terra was actually not an earth before the evolution of plants).  To avoid this conflation of usages, "[[Terra]]" is the preferred spelling used in much of science and science fiction to refer specifically to Earth as an astronomical object, especially in contexts where there could be more than one earth.  "[[moon]]," "[[Moon]]", & "[[Luna]]" and "[[sun]]," "[[Sun]]," & "[[Sol]]" have the same complications, with only the Latin names not having ambiguity in English.  Note also the usage of "[[galaxy]]" versus "[[Galaxy]]" (the [[Milky Way]]) and "[[universe]]" versus "[[Universe]]" (our universe within the [[multiverse]] [ [[Multiverse]] ]).  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 22:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
** Not sure what point you're trying to make. In a descriptive dictionary, "wrong" doesn't exist. Nor is it the role of a descriptive dictionary to suggest alternatives in order to avoid confusion. So the only question is whether it is still a proper noun when it is used as a proper noun but spelled lower case. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 22:46, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
*** Yes, that's why I had to grit my teeth and add "arguably."  Just because most people use a word a certain way, doesn't mean that I have to think that it is a correct or viable usage.  That's my personal opinion though, and not Wiktionary policy of course.  The descriptive versus prescriptive dictionary debate is an old one: <code>[[wikipedia:The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language#History]]</code>.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 22:57, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
**** Which brings us back to my original point, which was that I don't know what point you're trying to make. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:02, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
***** Just that these astronomical bodies are frequently named as lowercase proper nouns, even though they shouldn't be (since it is confusing and inconsistent).  Usage notes for these entries are probably the best route for Wiktionary.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 23:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
****** And put what, "Nicole Sharp doesn't like this usage"? Note that I even learned in school that the lower case form was correct when there is no other capitalized planet involved (i.e. "the sun and the earth", but "the Sun, the Earth, and Mars"). --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:32, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
******* Of course not.  I would argue that the lowercase form is a colloquial or informal usage, particularly for geocentric writing.  Versus the capitalized forms are more often for use as astronomical objects, particularly in contexts where there can be more than one earth, moon, sun, galaxy, or universe.  E.g. "the Earth revolves around the Sun" versus "you should not stare at the sun" or "the earth was once devoid of life."  The lowercase forms are linguistic inheritances from before [[wikipedia:Copernican principle|Copernicanism]].  There is little consistent usage though, which is why I advocate for using the Latin names in English to avoid any possible confusion.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 01:04, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
******* Just for a nonastronomical example, [[Wikipedia]] and [[Wiktionary]] follow a similar pattern to [[wikipedia]] and [[wiktionary]], with the lowercase form being ambiguously able to refer to either a proper noun or a standard noun, depending on context.  Though personally, I would still always use the capitalized forms, despite the usage otherwise.  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 01:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
******** How can you say it's colloquial or informal when they teach this in grammar class in schools? You can disagree with what they teach in schools, but you can hardly call it colloquial or informal. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 11:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
* Oxford does have a definition for [[proper noun]] though: "A name used for an individual person, place, or organization, spelled with an initial capital letter, e.g. Jane, London, and Oxfam. Often contrasted with common noun." A common noun: "A noun denoting a class of objects or a concept as opposed to a particular individual."  I daresay someone will [[argue the toss]] about that, no mention of proper nouns in lower case. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 22:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)''
*: Those definitions are clearly incomplete. If you go strictly by those definitions, then "the earth" is neither a proper noun nor a common noun, and neither is "the [[Odyssey]]". --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
*:: In other words, it doesn't say what you want it to say. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 16:04, 22 April 2017 (UTC)''
*::: {{Ping|Donnanz}} No, they're objectively incomplete. If all nouns are either proper or common (which maybe isn't the case, but then we need to know what the other categories are), then it's a problem that the two nouns I just gave as an example don't fit either of those definitions. By those definitions, "the earth" is not spelled with a capital letter, so it's not a proper noun, and it's neither a class of objects (because there is only one) nor a concept (it's a physical thing, or place if you will), so it's not a common noun either, and "the Odyssey" is not person, place, or organization, so it's not a proper noun, and it's not a class of objects or a concept, so it's also not a common noun either. What part of that is just my personal bias speaking? --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 02:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
* I would rank "earth", when it refers to the very large, apparently flat, object on which we walk, that contains a whole lot of soil and whose end we cannot see, as a common noun, alongside with "world", "universe", "multiverse" but also "heaven". It seems to me one should not be confused by the original singularity of reference. If we define "earth" as "any very large apparently flat object on which the language users walk and whose end they cannot see", there happens to be only one such object, but that's an accident. The definite article before "earth" is of interest; we find it in "the world", as well. The argument is probably not fully conclusive, but rather hints at a certain direction of thought. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|talk]]) 16:26, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
*: I would say that the earth as a thing is a common noun, but as a named specific location in the universe it's a proper noun. As a common noun I would liken it to "the ocean": all of the oceans on our planet are connected and can be referred to as a single entity, but are treated in English in a more generic way. Individual, named parts as geographical locations are proper nouns, though. Synonyms may be helpful, as well: if you can substitute "the world", it's probably a common noun, but if "Terra" is more appropriate, it's a proper noun. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 17:17, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

== D1g's Russian changes ==

{{ping|Atitarev|Cinemantique|Wikitiki89|Wanjuscha|KoreanQuoter}} I am getting frustrated dealing with D1g's changes and I would like some input here. He is a native Russian speaker but lacks a linguistic background, has been making wholesale changes to Russian etymologies without seeking consensus, and makes lots of mistakes. When I try to correct them, he edit-wars. When I point out the need for consensus, he says he doesn't need consensus because he has a grammar book that supposedly backs him up. Much of what he adds has errors in it and he adds a ''lot'' of stuff, making it hard to go through and fix it rather than just revert it. [[User:Benwing2|Benwing2]] ([[User talk:Benwing2|talk]]) 09:12, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:One example: [[-тельный]] vs. [[-тельн-]]. I already created [[-тельный]] awhile ago. D1g attempted to delete it, and in its place substitute -тельн-. The difference here is that -ый is the masculine nominative singular ending that is part of the lemma form. I believe it's more helpful to give suffixes in their lemma form rather than as pseudo-infixes. In D1g's page, he completely ignored the work I already did on this page (e.g. my usage notes section), substituted a totally different and IMO inferior page (e.g. with multiple definitions that are copies of each other), which has lots of errors (e.g. his usage examples are missing the English translation, missing stress marks, and have a spurious right arrow in them that gets copied into the transliterated form). [[User:Benwing2|Benwing2]] ([[User talk:Benwing2|talk]]) 09:15, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
::Another example: {{m|ru|красноречи́вый||eloquent}}, literally "beautiful-speaking". His analysis of красноречивый is typical: He writes красн- + -о- + речь +-ив- + -ый, using the noun речь (i.e. confusing nouns and verbs) and segmenting out all the possible morphemes without respecting the linguistic structure. In my analysis, this is красно- (a combining form of {{m|ru|кра́сный||beautiful}}) + {{m|ru|-речь||to speak}} (a verb that is no longer attested as such in modern Russian but still found in prefixed form; note that -ивый is always added to verbs, not nouns) + {{m|ru|-и́вый}}, an adjective-forming suffix. You could further analyze e.g. -ивый into -ив- + -ый, but I don't think it's helpful to do so at the top level; if this is to be done at all, do it on the [[-ивый]] page. D1g doesn't seem aware that morphemes can be analyzed into smaller morphemes and wants to do it all at the top level, and confuses the noun {{m|ru|речь||speech}} with the verb -речь. [[User:Benwing2|Benwing2]] ([[User talk:Benwing2|talk]]) 09:06, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
: While my knowledge of Russian is not that great, I'm not impressed by his wholesale reformatting of etymologies. Even I can tell that it doesn't makes sense to do it that way. Hiding behind a book is no substitute for consensus, so I think you are justified in pointing out that consensus is needed. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 17:17, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
: {{ping|Benwing2}} Wikitiki89, Atitarev could join at your talk page, don't repeat the same questions.
: > e.g. with multiple definitions that are copies of each other
: 1. Read labels carefully. POS are different, all examples are different.
: 2. Rules covered at en.wiktionary.org are incomplete compared to the book. Book is always provides better definitions, therefore I placing references every time.
: {{ping|Benwing2}} never does that because he has no references.
: > D1g doesn't seem aware that morphemes can be analyzed into smaller morpheme
: Could please stop claiming what I assume when I don't do that? Quite sure I know what [[морф]] is.
: {{ping|CodeCat}} we need better templates to clarify etymology vs word formation.
: {{ping|CodeCat}} I used [[:Template:affix]] because it was in [[:Category:Morphology templates]].
: I lost a hour or so arguing with {{ping|Cinemantique}} that affix could be used for morphology, not just etymology (as Cinemantique so violently insist). 
: I'm sure there an easy way to disambiguate definitions. [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 18:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
: {{ping|CodeCat}} I don't want to hide behind the book, but I want to expose book to readers, please consider what option would be the best for everyone. A new template; not affix, then what? [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 18:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I am also very concerned about D1gggg's mass edits without any previous agreement and some of his methods and styles were followed by Awesomemeeos (currently blocked). They also lack quality and looks, missing stresses or redundant transliterations of various symbols. I wasn't able to follow many edits as I am very busy now but what I've seen so far seems substandard or dubious but I can't say definitely "wrong". I don't have any suggestions for any actions at this stage, just asking D1gggg to be cooperative before any punitive action is required. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 01:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
::: > edits without any previous agreement
::: '''I asked 2 users about "prior agreements" I broke''', but I got silence ({{ping|Benwing}}) or taunts ({{ping|Cinemantique}}) as the response.
::: Not terribly healthy atmosphere.
::: As I said above, English section '''absolutely missing at least single way''' to define morphology of the word.
::: {{ping|Atitarev}} And instead of technical solution you seem to seek solution in people and blocks, that's just disgusting. [[User:D1gggg|d1g]] ([[User talk:D1gggg|talk]]) 11:22, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{ping|D1gggg}} I don't seek blocking just for blocking. Did I ever block you? If you refer to Meeos, you should know why he gets blocked first. I mention blocking because cooperation is the key but you refuse to listen to concerns.
:::: I can offer you semi-regular guidance in creating standard Russian entries, not sophisticated, no etymologies (or simple ones) but which will follow acceptable standards. ''Learn to walk before you can fly.'' You can choose a list of words you want to create - various parts of speech with various inflection types, including multipart words. I will make them or tell you what you need to get them right. It's no use fighting the community, if you can't beat them, join them. You were blocked in the Russian Wiktionary, you can get end up having the same here. We have to do it slowly - I am busy too and I can't catch with your mass edits. You could have spent the time understanding our complex templates, study existing entries. Believe me, they are not that hard for a native speaker and there's documentation and help is available. There are good reasons why they are complex - well, Russian inflection is very complex and Benwing2 did a great job making it all work. Note that Russian lemmas don't really require mass edits, they are in the good shape, if you want to join the efforts, it's to make them better quality, not worse! We can get by with less editors but editors who are here make a difference not a point. We are more forgiving with editors who work with languages, which have no other contributors but there's a limit to everything. Thanks for understanding. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 06:13, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

== What to call “script form” loanwords? ==

When a word in language A is loaned into language B, <u>only in its script form and not pronunciation</u>, and becomes a new word which is phonetically quite dissimilar, how should the etymology of the word in language B be described? I feel this is similar to a ''calque'', but it's ''calquing only with regard to how the word is written'', and a template is missing for this type of loanwords. Some examples include:

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
! Recipient language !! Recipient word !! Donor language !! Donor word
|-
| Chinese || {{zh-l|取消|to cancel}} || Japanese || {{ja-r|取り消し|とりけし|cancellation}}
|-
| Korean || {{ko-l|할인|割引|discount}} || Japanese || {{ja-r|割%引|わり%びき|discount}}
|-
| Korean || {{ko-l|엽서|葉書|postcard}} || Japanese || {{ja-r|葉%書|は%がき|postcard}}
|-
| Vietnamese || {{vi-link|Nga La Tư|Russia|俄羅斯}} || Chinese || {{zh-l|俄羅斯|Russia}}
|}

[[User:Wyang|Wyang]] ([[User talk:Wyang|talk]]) 10:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

:I think they don't fit into the definition of loanword. I would simply write "[[w:Logogram|Logogram]] from <language_name> <term>". That's how I often mention Aramaic logograms in Middle Persian (using {{temp|arameogram}}), and have created a new category to distinguish it from loanwords in Middle Persian. I support creating a new template, similar to "der" and "borrowing". --[[User:ZxxZxxZ|'''Z''']] 12:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:: {{Ping|ZxxZxxZ}} If I understand Wyang correctly, it's not actually a logogram. It's more like (but not exactly like) the phenomenon of ''Iran'' being borrowed from Persian /iːˈrɒːn/, but pronounced in English (at least by some) as /aɪˈɹæn/. This phenomenon becomes more extreme with Chinese characters, and I see why Wyang is tempted to call it a calque. That said, I don't know what we ''should'' call it. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 14:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
::: I'd call it an orthographic loan. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 15:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{reply to|Wikitiki89}} Are you saying you consider these a kind (an extreme kind) of [[spelling pronunciation]]? Because that's what I'd call /aɪˈɹæn/. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 08:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: That's why I said it's not exactly the same phenomenon. Chinese takes a word that was coined in Japanese, and reads it as if it were coined in Chinese, but that's the normal way for these Japanese coinages to be borrowed into Chinese if they come through the written language, which is unlike spelling pronunciations, because spelling pronunciations have a connotation of being the "wrong" way to pronounce something. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 11:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: {{Ping|Angr}} A better parallel would be that it is like Germans pronouncing ''Hamburger'' (the food) the proper German way rather than as ''Hämbörgör''. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 11:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: It's somewhat related. It's how speakers of these languages read Han characters when they see them written, without any knowledge or use of the knowledge of the Chinese pronunciation, any variety, any period. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 08:43, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: Borrowings from Japanese kanji with native Japanese readings (kun'yomi) are especially extreme. Any similarity in pronunciation in the target language may only be coincidental.--[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 08:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[jay]] ==

Does the sense "[[joint]], marihuana cigarette" belong to the bird? Or isn't it rather from the letter? [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 19:18, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
: I always assumed it was from the letter. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 20:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[subject area]] ==

Just dropping by. Do you think [[subject area]] is not SOP? I found it on http://www.mnemonicdictionary.com/word/subject%20area . It means "a branch of knowledge, field of study". [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 22:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
* I think it's SOP. You can also say "area of study", or "that's not my area". --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
** But is it really the [[area]] of a [[subject]]? [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 23:06, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
*** Yes, see definition #4: "The extent, scope, or range of an object or concept." --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:12, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
*** I would describe it as a reduplicated compound noun.  "Subject" and "area" can be used synonymously, so you know the definition of "subject area" if you know the definition of either "subject" or "area."  [[User:Nicole Sharp|Nicole Sharp]] ([[User talk:Nicole Sharp|talk]]) 23:17, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
**** I saw this at: "Last high school course grade in each '''subject area''': English (a, b, c, d, f) Math (a, b, c, d, f) ..." etc. [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 01:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[the sky]] and [[the ceiling]] ==

Common sarcastic responses to [[what's up]]. Should there be entries for these? Why or why not? [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 13:03, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
: No. This has more to do with the ambiguity of [[what's up]] (even though the ambiguity itself is sarcastic and not real ambiguity) than with the response itself. You can just as easily say "that lamp" or something. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 13:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

== category for arabic label ("modern")  ==

Hi, I'd like to know whether it's feasible to automatically create a category for those terms with the lable ("modern"), as is in [[توقع#Etymology_1]] the sense ''3. ("modern") to request''. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 15:20, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

== Dank meme = overused meme? ==

I am under the impression that the intended meaning of "dank meme", by people who take it serious, does not use the term ironically and for things that are overused, at least not usually. I'd argue that when people overuse memes, they are not dank, but "cringe" or "cringeworthy" as they would call it. Reference: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dank_meme#English --[[User:Luka1184|Luka1184]] ([[User talk:Luka1184|talk]]) 23:55, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
: I find this surprising. I’ve only ever ''dank memes'' used with the implication that the memes are excellent rather than trite (which our definition of {{m|en|dank}} would cover), but [http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dank-memes Know Your Meme] supports the current definition. — ''[[User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|Ungoliant]] <sup>([[User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|falai]])</sup>'' 02:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:: It seems to have two definitions. I suggest doing &lit as a second definition. [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 02:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
::: I see "dank meme" as a really campy, over-the-top way to say "excellent meme". —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 05:13, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

== the [[year]]s pass by; through the [[year]]s; over the [[year]]s; remembering [[year]]s past ==

Which definitions of ''[[year]]'' do the usages in the above phrases correspond to? I get the feeling that they're more metaphorical and emotional(?) than "365 days of the Gregorian calendar", but they are still used to describe a time period of multiple years. (see also the translation of Chinese {{l|zh|歲月}}) —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 05:12, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
: What does the Gregorian calendar have to do with anything? A year is a full cycle of the earth around the sun, manifested visibly by a full cycle of seasons. Even if you don't count the days, a year is still a year. I don't know about {{cog|zh|歲月}}, but the English word "year" probably should not be interpreted the same way. The easiest way to explain this I guess is that "years" in your examples establishes an order of magnitude of many literal years. You could replace the word "years" with "days" in some of these examples and get essentially the same meaning but with an order of magnitude of many days instead (in the other examples, this would be too short of an order of magnitude for it to make sense). Another point is that these phrases evoke a feeling of years passing by one at a time: one year goes by, then another—clearly literal years. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 09:54, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

== Arabic dialectal synonyms template ==

Hi, chinese entries are really informative, even showing a "[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/牛子#Synonyms dialectal synonyms template]". I wonder whether a similar template could be created for the Arabic language, which would enrich its entries a great deal. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 07:21, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
: We've had Chinese editors who worked very hard and did tons of research to create those lists of dialectal synonyms. If you want to volunteer to do that same work for Arabic, go ahead. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 09:59, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I could try working on the technical side of things, but I wouldn't be able to contribute content-wise with my close-to-zero knowledge of Arabic. Also, it might be a good idea to generalize the templates and modules for use in other (macro)languages. —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 13:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Don't worry about the technical side. Until we have someone who ''could'' contribute enough content (and we don't), we won't be able to do this. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 13:22, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{ping|Justinrleung}} For experimenting, you can try making dialectal forms of [[what#Translations]]. It's true that there is very little comprehensive research but there are dictionaries of dialects, textbooks and phrasebooks. We have some contributors for Egyptian and Hijazi Arabic. Lexically, Arabic dialects don't differ that much from [[MSA]], it's pronunciation, relaxed grammar, form of expression and those very frequently used words but low in number that differ from MSA. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 02:54, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
: Do such resources for dialectal equivalents, comprehensive or otherwise, exist for Arabic? There is a somewhat comprehensive reference for Chinese, and several references covering some of the dialectal groups, which provided inspiration for the creation for the Chinese dialectal template and modules. [[User:Wyang|Wyang]] ([[User talk:Wyang|talk]]) 07:10, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Not as far as I know. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 02:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
::: You can find resources for specific dialects, they may not be online - Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Moroccan, Libyan, Saudi, Levantine, Gulf, etc. Not necessarily by country but by standard Arabic dialect classifications. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 02:54, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
* Don't speak Arabic, but just want to add that that dialectal synonyms system is incredible. If other editors could adapt it for other languages, it would make Wiktionary a truly exceptional, multilingual tool. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 08:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[生得]] ==

Are {{zh-l|生得}} and {{zh-l|長得}} idiomatic to be included?
Both are not so straightforward cases, IMO.
# {{zh-l|生}} and {{zh-l|長|tr=zhǎng}} are normal verbals with meanings "to be born" and "to grow up"
# {{zh-l|得}} is a verb complement particle, which links verbs to adverbs, e.g. {{zh-x|你 說 得 很 對|You are right}}
# [[User:Wyang]] says the above are SoP's. E.g. in the phrase {{zh-x|她 長{zhǎng} 得{de} 很 漂亮|she is very beautiful}}, it just "she has grown (how) very beautifully". Or, {{zh-x|他 生 得{de} 很 聰明|He is very smart}} (i.e. "he was born smart").

Any other opinions? {{ping|Tooironic|Justinrleung|Suzukaze-c}}? --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 07:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

* Probably SoP. Chinese dictionaries don't include them. The simple reason is that an unlimited number of verbs can collocate with 得 - just because the resulting combination does not have a direct equivalent in English, doesn't make it idiomatic in Chinese. Example sentences and usage notes are useful of course, but they can be given in the respective 子 entries. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 08:06, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

# {{ping|Tooironic}} [https://wenlin.com/abc ABC English-Chinese/Chinese-English Dictionary] includes both, which can be seen in [https://wenlin.com/ Wenlin software].
# The other endless collocations with 得 don't change the meaning, they are just used to link verbs with adverbs. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 11:07, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
#: Wenlin also includes SoPs though. And, like I said, the usage of 得 in these cases is typical Chinese syntax, and not idiomatic. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 11:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

:I don't know.—[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 17:28, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

: I'm not too sure. Guoyu Cidian has a definition "生、顯" under 長. It might be useful to keep these, but it might be enough just to have an example under 生 and 長. —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 19:24, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[fobia#Portuguese]] ==

Is it true that this word is stressed on the first syllable (and with the /u/ vowel) in Portugal, but on the second syllable in Brazil? Wouldn't /ˈfuβiɐ/ have to be spelled *''fúbia''? —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 12:18, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
:A native speaker of European Portuguese did add it, but it sounds wrong to me. I've modified it under the assumption that it was just a thinko. {{ping|Liuscomaes|Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV}} —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 05:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:: That’s certainly the case. — ''[[User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|Ungoliant]] <sup>([[User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|falai]])</sup>'' 20:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

== Metaknowledge is wrongly reverting my edits ==

Reversions e.g. [https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=metagraywacke&diff=42460359&oldid=42460251] and [https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Athabascanist&diff=42685631&oldid=42684842]. This has been discussed; see [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User_talk:Metaknowledge#metagraywacke]. I disagree with the reversions. What is consensus? [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 01:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
: I thought that alternative-form entries were not supposed to have Etymology sections. But I am not sure if this is official policy or not. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 01:41, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:: There may be cases where an alt-form entry needs its own Etymology section, but I don't believe the two instances linked above are such times. I agree with Meta that Etymology sections are unneeded in those two entries. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 04:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
*As is standard practice here, and as CodeCat agreed in that discussion you linked to, we don't need to give trivially different etymologies for alternative forms. —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 05:05, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
: I have to agree with the others- it's best to keep entries for minor variants as minimal as possible (minor as in trivially different from the lemma, not minor as in unimportant). [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 05:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Why have an entry as trivial as that then?  Wouldn't a redirect be better if we were dead-set against having any actual information on the page? - [[User:TheDaveRoss|TheDaveRoss]] 12:46, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Correlation (such as alternative, misspelling or whatever) to a linked term <em>is</em> a piece of information. --[[User:Dixtosa|Dixtosa]] ([[User talk:Dixtosa|talk]]) 13:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Alternative spellings can be redirects, with the alternative spellings documented on the primary spelling page. Since every combination of characters which is not the correct spelling is a misspelling I would rather not have them at all. - [[User:TheDaveRoss|TheDaveRoss]] 12:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Forgot to mention my original reason for posting - if a good-faith editor makes an intentional edit like these, reverting is not the correct action. The first place to go is to Equinox's talk page to raise the issue, and if you are going to undo the change yourself you should do so with an edit comment. Reverts are for obvious and un-contentious changes only. - [[User:TheDaveRoss|TheDaveRoss]] 12:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Except that we already discussed this on my talk-page. —[[User:Metaknowledge|Μετάknowledge]]<small><sup>''[[User talk:Metaknowledge|discuss]]/[[Special:Contributions/Metaknowledge|deeds]]''</sup></small> 19:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC) 
:::: Even in that case, I think that an edit summary is appropriate. - [[User:TheDaveRoss|TheDaveRoss]] 12:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

:And what about the categories? <nowiki>{{suffix|en|Athabascan|ist}}</nowiki> adds the entry into a suffix cat and without it, the entry is not added into the cat. But of course the entry does belong into [[:Category:English words suffixed with -ist]] and should be added to that cat. -[[Special:Contributions/84.161.41.33|84.161.41.33]] 13:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:: The categories are the strongest argument against. Wikimedia categories are navigational aids for finding entries that have something in common, not statements of classification. Having all the minor variants in the categories adds unnecessary clutter. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 15:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
*Personally I agree with Equinox. That is, I agree with Metaknowledge that "we don't need to give trivially different etymologies for alternative forms", but that is not to say that they are not allowed, or should be deleted if someone has gone to the trouble of adding them. [[User:Widsith|Ƿidsiþ]] 14:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

== Mathematical angle brackets for the orthographic representation ==

Today, this entry was created: [[⟨ ⟩]]. It uses the "MATHEMATICAL LEFT ANGLE BRACKET" and "MATHEMATICAL RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET" and is defined as "(linguistics) Encloses orthographic representation."

Is that correct? Do we use these specific characters for that purpose? It sounds off to me, but what do I know.

This definition was removed from [[〈 〉]], which uses "LEFT ANGLE BRACKET" and "RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET" and has a Chinese and a Japanese section too. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 11:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

: Wikipedia [[wikipedia:Bracket|cites]] (emphasis mine): ''“The angle brackets or chevrons at U+27E8 and U+27E9 are for mathematical use '''and Western languages''', whereas U+3008 and U+3009 are for East Asian languages. The chevrons at U+2329 and U+232A are deprecated in favour of the U+3008 and U+3009 East Asian angle brackets. Unicode '''discourages''' their use for mathematics '''and in Western texts, because they are canonically equivalent to the CJK code points''' U+300x and thus likely to render as double-width symbols.”''
: These characters are indeed used for linguistic purposes; Wikipedia uses them for its [[wikipedia:template:angle bracket|angle bracket]] template, which is used in a wide variety of language-related articles. Please do not be misled by just reading the names Unicode gave to these characters. ―[[User:Born2bgratis|Born2bgratis]] ([[User talk:Born2bgratis|talk]]) 12:13, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

::Thank you for the explanation. Maybe we could explain that in both entries, as usage notes. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 12:19, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

::: Right now I’m not sure about what to put on Usage notes, but for now I’ve added an {{tl|also}} template to both entries. And the new entry is missing the definition for the actual mathematical sense (LOL); I’m adding that as well. ―[[User:Born2bgratis|Born2bgratis]] ([[User talk:Born2bgratis|talk]]) 12:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I'm puzzled by the statement that U+2329 and U+232A (&lang;&rang;) are canonically equivalent to U+3008 and U+3009 (&#x3008;&#x3009;), because in my browser they look identical to U+27E8 and U+27E9 (&#x27E8;&#x27E9;). Perhaps it's a font thing or something. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 19:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

: Linguists don't use Unicode codepoints, they just use angle brackets. And I guarantee that more linguists will choose the code points [[Unsupported_titles/Enclosing_less_than_greater_than|< >]] to represent their angle brackets than [[⟨ ⟩]]. The fact that Wikipedia chose such an obscure set of Unicode characters for their linguistic purposes is very annoying because most fonts can't even display them. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 13:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

:: The characters are obscure, you say? Give me a break, I’ve just found them in the very first linguistics book I took from the library: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/thafitos/33442047983/ Photo] (wasn’t sure if I could upload it to Commons).
:: And many free and open-source fonts do display them; grab a recent copy of e.g. Roboto, Vollkorn or STIX. Or update your operating system and you’ll get ’em in the system fonts. ―[[User:Born2bgratis|Born2bgratis]] ([[User talk:Born2bgratis|talk]]) 00:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
::: I said the Unicode characters are obscure. Not that the shapes are obscure. Of course people have been printing them since before Unicode added a codepoint for them. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 14:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Which isn’t true, of course. They’ve been assigned since Unicode version 3.2, released back in 2002 (fifteen years ago), so they aren’t more obscure than, say, the Russian ruble symbol. And you can find them in freaking Times New Roman. Unless your OS is Windows XP?, is that your problem? [http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/27e8/fontsupport.htm List of fonts that support it] FYI, Windows (with Segoe UI Symbol), Linux (DejaVu Sans), macOS and even Android (Roboto) have out-of-the-box support for this character.
::::P.S. [http://www.typophile.com/node/125920 A recent Typophile thread where somebody used ⟨ ⟩ which I’ve just incidentally found]. ―[[User:Born2bgratis|Born2bgratis]] ([[User talk:Born2bgratis|talk]]) 23:43, 25 April 2017 (UTC)  
::::: How long it's been in Unicode has nothing to do with its obscurity. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 14:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Using less-than and greater-than is just a makeshift solution when you don't want to bother with using the correct characters, like using a plain hyphen-minus in place of an ''n''-dash in phrases like ''Iran&ndash;Iraq War''. I would be disappointed if a publisher used ''< >'' in a linguistics book. I try to enforce the standard of using actual angle brackets on Wikipedia. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 00:43, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I'm puzzled that you say that most fonts can't display these symbols, because my default ones in Chrome seem to. Of course, maybe there's some background font selection going on. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 00:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

== Latin [[prox]] ==

wiktionary's definition: "fart"<br />
L&S: "[[by your leave]]"<br />
Is wiktionary's definition a joke or do dictionaries like L&S contain an error? -[[Special:Contributions/84.161.41.33|84.161.41.33]] 13:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
*Vandalism that has gone unnoticed for some time. Fixed. [[User:SemperBlotto|SemperBlotto]] ([[User talk:SemperBlotto|talk]]) 13:45, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

== Pronunciation of [[atony]] ==

Could someone review this? I'm not familiar with this word but my intuition says the second syllable should probably be a schwa. [[User:Benwing2|Benwing2]] ([[User talk:Benwing2|talk]]) 18:41, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
*Fixed. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 19:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

== Is [[televise]] really ambitransitive? ==

We claim it is. I've never heard anything like "that show televised well!" or "the golf will televise this afternoon". [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 23:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
: I couldn't help but laugh. No I don't think it can be used that way. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 13:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
:: {{Ping|SemperBlotto}} Apparently you are the one who added this definition back in 2005. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 13:16, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
:::I've added a citation of such use. 
:::OT: The term ''ambitransitive'' (''ditransitive'', too) should be cleaned out of English L2 sections, IMO, because they are syntacticist jargon. Are "ambitransitive" verbs translated by the same verb in both transitive and intransitive usage in all languages? [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 14:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: We sometimes put "ergative" on cases like this. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 15:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Ambitransitive is ambiguous in cases like this, "ergative" is more specific and informative. But we should only put that it's ergative if it's actually commonly ergative. If it's just a rare usage, then it should be separated and marked as rare. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 15:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::I think that intransitive use of ''televise'' in non-technical works is much more common than the use of ''ergative'' and ''ambitransitive'' in dictionaries. I think the use of such terms is at the very least off-putting and could readily be seen as an indication that inmates are running the asylum. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 15:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Most English dictionaries I've seen don't even make a distinction between transitive and intransitive and ergative and whatever else. If we're going to be thorough and include the information, we should try to present in as friendly a manner as possible, but not shy away from using accurate terminology with a link to a glossary. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 15:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[駅]] ==

What's the usage of {{zh-l|駅}} in Chinese Cantonese, specifically in Hong Kong? Is it the same as {{zh-l|の}} for visual effect only and never in a running text? From what I know it's used instead of {{zh-l|站}} and is pronounced "zaam6" (站), not "jik6" as {{zh-l|驛}} would be pronounced in Cantonese. Should this be sent to RFV? --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 12:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

: Kindly refer to [[站#Etymology 2|etymology 2 of 站]] for usage preferences of {{l|zh|驛}} against {{l|zh|站}} . Note that Chinese characters are often corrupted in the past prior to the existence of national standards such as {{w|GB 18030}} (mainland China), {{w|CNS 11643}} (Taiwan), {{w|Big5}} (Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau). [[User:KevinUp|KevinUp]] ([[User talk:KevinUp|talk]]) 13:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

::What does it tell us? We all know that in Sinitic and Sino-Xenic world {{zh-l|站}} is used in (greater) China and Vietnam and derivations of {{zh-l|驛}} in Japan: {{ja-r|駅|えき}} and Korea: {{ko-l|역|驛}}. It still doesn't explain the role of the Japanese character [[駅]] in a Chinese context or the claim that it's ''also'' Chinese. And yes, I saw the image. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 13:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Note: Many Japanese characters ({{w|shinjitai}} characters) were in fact derived from historical {{w|zh:楷書|楷書}}, {{w|zh:行書|行書}} or {{w|草書|草書}} in China dating back to the {{w|Tang dynasty}} (Refer to the {{w|Chinese calligraphy|calligraphic}} works of {{w|Yanzhen Qing|顏真卿}} and {{w|Ouyang Xun|歐陽詢}}). Other shinjitai characters were based upon a 1935 draft document ({{w|zh:第一批简体字表|第一批简体字表}}) which was never realized due to the outbreak of war. As to why {{l|zh|駅}} is used in Hong Kong instead of {{l|zh|驛}}, it is due to {{l|zh|駅}} being included in the Hong Kong Supplementary Character Set {{w|HKSCS}} which contains private use characters used either in Cantonese or for writing names of places in Hong Kong. I highly recommend getting a 書法字典 which is an eye opener for studying calligraphic scripts as well as variant characters. Chinese calligraphy is much more versatile compared to Ming typefaces, only used in printed books and of limited variety before computer fonts were invented. [[User:KevinUp|KevinUp]] ([[User talk:KevinUp|talk]]) 13:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
::::It's not how works here. The inclusion in HKSCS doesn't make a difference. The actual usage needs to be attested to meet our [[WT:CFI]]. I'm sending it to [[Wiktionary:Requests for verification|RFV]]. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 14:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[Steve]] the atmospheric phenomenon ==

A new atmospheric phenomenon was recently named {{m|en|Steve}} by its discoverers. Wikipedia already has an article about it, albeit small. Should we include it as a hot word? —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 18:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
: Yes. [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 00:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[grow on]] ==

I've heard the verb "grow on" used in a gardening context, but it seems like a British thing and I don't really know what it means. Would anyone mind taking a stab at defining it? — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 00:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[freedom of expression]] ==

This is not American English, as far as I know. Commonly used in British and Australian English. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 00:53, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
: This is used in American English too. [[User:PseudoSkull|PseudoSkull]] ([[User talk:PseudoSkull|talk]]) 00:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
:: But the point is, it shouldn't be tagged "chiefly US". —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 09:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Removed tag. ''[[User:Hillcrest98|Anti-Gamz]]'' '''''[[Special:Contributions/Hillcrest98|Dust]]''''' ([[User talk:Hillcrest98|There's Hillcrest!]]) 14:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[応]] ==

I'm not familiar with the involved languages, but the changes in [https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%BF%9C&diff=prev&oldid=42708610 this edit] do not seem 100% kosher. At best it leaves a headword without a definition line and a lone "Etymology 1" section. [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 12:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
: It's not that bad. Only the etymology 1 header was an issue. We should not have definitions under the translingual header for Han characters because they are different depending on the respective languages. —&nbsp;[[User:Justinrleung|justin(r)leung]]&nbsp;<sub>{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Justinrleung|(t...)]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Justinrleung|c=›]]&nbsp;}</sub> 14:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Right, I'm glad I didn't intervene in this entry. [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 15:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

== Wrong declension for "manes" in Latin ==

The declension table for "manes" shows the incorrect form for the genitive "manum", while the correct one is "manium" as shown above. I don't know how to edit the table myself. All dictionaries confirm this.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0060%3Aentry%3Dmanes {{unsigned|Mozziekiller}}
: Fixed. —<span class="Latf" style="font-size: 100%">[[User:JohnC5|John]][[User talk:JohnC5|C5]]</span> 16:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[could have done without]] ==

This is totally wrong, isn't it? It's not the "simple past" of anything. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 21:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

: The lemma should just be [[do without]]. The rest is SOP. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 21:48, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Redirected. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 15:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Should [[could do with]] redirect to [[do with]]? [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 17:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: That's a trickier one. Is ''do with'' ever used without ''could''? It's similar to [[could use]]. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: I can find a few uses of "will have to do with a" where it may carry a sense like "[will have to] make do with [a]", e.g. "Man will have to do with one Man as God's representative, as the upholder and proclaimer of the covenant; he will have to do with a prophet", "The few fully resolved windows for the brighter stars allow for a PSF reconstruction, those for the fainter stars will have to do with a reconstructed LSF." Maybe it's best left as is. I see [[make do with]] redirects to [[make do]]. [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 17:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

== Names of Scripts ==

Does anyone else think this is confusing where Serbo-Croatian is concerned ? 
** Balto-Slavic:
*** Lithuanian: {{l|lt|blę̃sti}}
*** Slavic: {{l|sla-pro|*blęsti||talk nonsense}}
**** South Slavic:
***** Old Church Slavonic: {{l|cu|блѧсти}}
***** Serbo-Croatian:
*****: Cyrillic: {{l|sh|блести}}
*****: Latin: {{l|sh|blesti}}

It always takes me a second to realise that it's not a Latin word borrowed from Serbo-Croatian, but the Serbo-Croatian word rendered in Latin script. If it ''were'' a borrowed word, would it look any different ? How would we be able to readily spot the difference ?  [[User:Leasnam|Leasnam]] ([[User talk:Leasnam|talk]]) 16:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

: I'm not suggesting we change the names of the scripts, but could we not rather show this as:
* Serbo-Croatian:
** блести (Cyrillic), blesti (Latin) 

or just
* Serbo-Croatian:
** блести / blesti  

:  [[User:Leasnam|Leasnam]] ([[User talk:Leasnam|talk]]) 16:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:: I think at one point we were writing "Roman" instead of "Latin" for precisely this reason. However, I agree that the slash syntax is even better. We could have a template that allows you to enter one script and have it link to both. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 16:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::: What about for Old Church Slavonic? —<span class="Latf" style="font-size: 100%">[[User:JohnC5|John]][[User talk:JohnC5|C5]]</span> 17:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: I personally think for OCS we should give only Cyrillic in most places and only link to the Glatolic as an alternative form from the entry itself. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
::: {{temp|sh-l}} and {{temp|sh-m}}, parallel to {{temp|zh-l}} and {{temp|zh-m}}? —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 17:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: Yes, and {{temp|sh-t}}. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Is it possible to automatically generate one script from the other? [[User:DTLHS|DTLHS]] ([[User talk:DTLHS|talk]]) 17:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: [[Module:sh-translit]]. But it's only completely accurate in the Cyrl > Latn direction. —[[User:CodeCat|CodeCa]][[User talk:CodeCat|t]] 17:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
: I support listing script variants in the same line, even removing the redundant qualifiers (“Latin”, “Cyrillic”). Our Japanese translations do it right.  — ''[[User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|Ungoliant]] <sup>([[User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|falai]])</sup>'' 21:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:: Although to be fair, the situation in Japanese is a bit different, since the different "scripts" are really part of the same script and are all used together in the same texts, while with Serbo-Croatian it's either one or the other. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 21:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

== Why does [[pussy]] mean ‘coward’? ==

— ((([[user:Romanophile|Romanophile]]))) [[user talk:Romanophile|♞]] ([[special:Contributions/Romanophile|contributions]]) 21:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
: Likely due to association with effeminacy. — ''[[User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|Ungoliant]] <sup>([[User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV|falai]])</sup>'' 21:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
::See also ''[[scaredy cat]]'' and ''[[fraidy cat]]''. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 22:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::: And {{m|en|pusillanimous}}? (Not really.) [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 22:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:: <small>This exists in many languages. It's really unfair, particularly when I think about childbirth.</small> [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 23:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

== Syntax der arabischen Schriftsprache der Gegenwart ==

Apparently the best syntactic analysis of Arabic is that of the '[http://www.worldcat.org/title/syntax-der-arabischen-schriftsprache-der-gegenwart/oclc/939017984/editions?editionsView=true&referer=br Syntax der arabischen Schriftsprache der Gegenwart]', yet the work is only offered in German. I'd like to know whether it'd be possible to organize a group of users interested in translating it into English, dividing the work among them proportionally yet helping each other so that it is not that cumbersome. After completing it, we'll be able to edit arabic entries to the level of other languages such as Chinese or English.  --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 15:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
: Wiktionary really isn't the place to suggest such things. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 15:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
::Wikisource hosts Wikimedian-led translations, but only of public-domain works. This book is still under copyright, so any translation of it would be a copyvio unless we had permission from the copyright holder. And in that case, it wouldn't be usable under our CC-BY-SA and GFDL licenses anyway. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 16:09, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
{{reply to|Angr}} It can be used for reliable reference added by editors, but it cannot be hosted by the wikifoundation. Adding sentences from it cannot copyvio since such examples are taken from a public corpus of language, i.e. sentences are not made up by the authors themselves since it's a pure descriptive grammar. Granted, tea_room might not be the most proper page to suggest this, so please let me know if there's a better page where I can post my suggestion   --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 16:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
:Quoting individual sentences would probably fall under fair use, but hosting it publicly anywhere (even on a non-Wikimedia site) would be a copyvio. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 16:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
::{{reply to|Angr}} That's it, it cannot be 'hosted' or similar anywhere, which obviously I have not mentioned at all. It would be a collaborative personal work from which the entries would benefit, but wiki foundation itself does not have to be involved at all. I hope I have expressed myself clearly, otherwise just let me know --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 17:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
::: I understood it that way to begin with, which is why I said Wiktionary isn't the place to suggest such things. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:06, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{reply to|Wikitiki89}} I know here there are people who love languages and learning, who are more experienced and savant than me; yet, I'd like to know of any alternatives you could have in mind, if any. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 17:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: I don't know where the right place is, but it's inappropriate to ask for volunteers for a private project on a public project like Wiktionary. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 17:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: {{reply to|Wikitiki89}} Perhaps I can mention it as part of my personal info., in my personal page or profile, just as an interest or future project -Certainly, it's the first time I cannot find an important work from the XXI century that's not published/translated in english. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 17:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[Appendix:Unicode/Arabic Presentation Forms-A]] ==

Hi, in the appendix of the Unicode ligatures for arabic the column where the images are shown should use a different typeface (Unicode pdf document shows one similar to 'Arabic Typesetting').

PS Would this fit best in beer parlour? --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 18:28, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

:I see only one image, for the Allah ligature. The other column is plain text. —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 18:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

:: Even that image was overly calligraphic, so I've removed it. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 18:49, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

::: [http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/UFB50.pdf This] is how they should appear. The wikipedia page shows the same issue. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 19:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: {{Ping|Backinstadiums}} Feel free to gather up the images, and I'll show you where to add them. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 19:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: {{Ping|Wikitiki89}} I have them all in a word document. Perhaps I can ask in MS forum for a macro to turn them all into images, but I have no idea about the format needed here. How's it work? --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 19:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: {{Ping|Backinstadiums}} First of all, you need to make sure you use a font that has a compatible license. The "Arabic Typesetting" font is owned by Microsoft and I doubt it has a usable license. Images can be uploaded at the [[commons:|Wikimedia Commons]]. Ideally they should be PNG files with transparent backgrounds. You can download [https://www.gimp.org/ GIMP] which should help you create those. You should probably name the files after their Unicode codepoints. Then you'd need to list them at [[Module:Unicode data/images/00F]]. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 20:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Actually, ideally they should be SVG files with transparent background, shouldn't they? Commons even has templates and categories requesting for existing images to be converted to SVG. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 20:15, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: +1 for SVG, infinitely resizable vector graphics. —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 21:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::::: I'm not sure how well that would work with text when the font matters. Would the font have to be embedded in the SVG? --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 21:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::[https://www.google.com/search?q=convert+text+to+path Nope.] —[[User:Suzukaze-c|suzukaze]] ([[User talk:Suzukaze-c|t]]・[[Special:Contributions/Suzukaze-c|c]]) 01:51, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: {{Ping|Wikitiki89}} First I'll ask in stackoverflow about the possibilies of Adobe Acrobat DC, since we already have a pdf. Do you know whether wiki foundation has asked Unicode for something similar before? Maybe Unicode can somehow provide those images directly --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 20:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: Unicode uses a proprietary font that they don't release in their PDFs. The PDFs don't have images, just text directly rendered with the fonts. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 20:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[what's new]] ==

This noun sense isn't justified, is it? [[User:Kolmiel|Kolmiel]] ([[User talk:Kolmiel|talk]]) 23:17, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

: Totally SOP and unnecessary. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 23:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
: Also, it's a noun phrase, not a noun. If it is kept, it should be moved to the Phrase section. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 00:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:: We treat noun phrases as nouns, just like we treat verb phrases as verbs. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 14:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::: Could you give some examples of noun phrases being treated as nouns? This noun phrase doesn't even have a noun as head (its head is a pronoun, ''what''), whereas verb phrases generally have verbs as heads. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 18:26, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: The first one I thought of was [[apple of someone's eye]]. We could call it a pronoun then. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 18:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: I guess the difference between that and ''what's new'' is that one has a noun as head, whereas ''what's new'' is a phrase headed by an interrogative pronoun ({{w|complementizer}}). So, ''apple of someone's eye'' can have the inflectional characteristics of a noun (for instance, pluralization: ''apples of someone's eye''), while ''what's new'' doesn't. Not sure if there's a better word for ''what's new'', parallel to calling a prepositional phrase that and not naming it an adverb or adjective from its function in a given sentence. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 19:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::: That's why I said we could call it a pronoun. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 19:55, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Ohh, that's what you were saying. That sounds odd too: it's a phrase headed by a pronoun, but I'm not sure that makes it a pronoun. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 20:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:The noun definition should be moved to the Phrase PoS. I don't think that the nominal use of ''[[what's new]]'' is equivalent to ''what is new'', ie, ''I asked him to tell me what's new'' is not equivalent to ''I asked him to tell me what is new.'' [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 01:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:: That's a good point, I'll have to think about it. In the given usage example, however, it's certainly SOP. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 14:19, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Is it any more SoP than the definitions under the phrase PoS? That two expressions using synonymous, indeed mostly identical, components (''-n't'' being equivalent to ''not'') cannot be used interchangeably is evidence of the idiomaticity of one of the expressions. I think that ''what's new'' as a nominal refers means only the kinds of things that might be elicited by the expression as a question, which several dictionaries find idiomatic. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 23:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[حماض|حُمَّاض]] ==

Some books like ''Medieval Arab Cookery'' (2001) by Maxime Rodinson et al say that {{m|ar|حُمَّاض}} (by itself) meant "citron" as well as "sorrel", and the derivative {{m|ar|حُمَّاضِيَّة}} denoted a sort of stew made with citron. Is this still the case in more modern Arabic? [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 02:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|-sche}} I couldn't find this meaning in Hans Wehr but the root letters {{m|ar|ح-م-ض|tr=ḥ-m-ḍ}} are about acidity. Also: {{m|ar|حَمْضِيَة||citrus fruit}}, {{m|ar|حَمُضَ||to be/become sour}}, {{m|ar|حَمْض||acid}}. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 11:00, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[yen]] ==

Ido: {{l|io|yen}}, etymology 1.

There are currently three part-of-speech headers for the particle ''yen''. I think the interjection header is appropriate, but the other two seem mismatched to me and I'm not sure what the best option is as they do seem distinct. The example at the section "preposition" is interesting because it governs a clause and ''yen'' is synonymous with ''yen ke'', appending ''ke'' is normally the way to form a conjunction from a preposition. Esperanto {{m|eo|jen}} may also provide a proper model. [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 13:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

: Hi. I found all this information in the text book by Talmay (1919) and in the Dyer dictionary. I tried my best to interpretate it correctly and add good examples (please correct me if any of my information is incorrect). Here's an excerpt from Talmay: https://imgur.com/gallery/jYptK. – [[User:Algentem|Algentem]] ([[User talk:Algentem|talk]]) 10:03, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks for that. I think your interpretation of the described options is reasonable, it's just that the word doesn't really behave like a preposition or a conjunction semantically. [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 09:59, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[sugar high]], [[sugar rush]] ==

Isn't hyperactivity from sugar a myth? Do the entries need changing? [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 03:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:How about "caused, or believed to be caused, by"? But I don't think it's a myth that sugar gives you a burst of energy that drops off rapidly, even if there's no evidence that sugar consumption causes ADHD. —[[User:Angr|Aɴɢʀ]] ([[User talk:Angr|''talk'']]) 06:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:: I think in all our definitions, perception is implied. If some day it is discovered that [[dinosaur]]s never existed, but that [[unicorn]]s do exist, in theory that shouldn't change our definitions. --[[User:Wikitiki89|Wiki]][[User talk:Wikitiki89|Tiki]][[Special:Contributions/Wikitiki89|89]] 18:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[autistic]] ==

I added a second adjective sense based on psychological/medical jargon from the 1910s and 1920s (describing a different diagnosis that was considered child schizophrenia) and continued pejorative use, but should it be labeled offensive? [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 11:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

: Just as the literal meanings of words shift over time, so do the implications. I think we have to be careful with glosses that have changed over time: one very basic approach is to say "now offensive" rather than (implicitly always) "offensive". [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 13:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::The ''APA Dictionary of Psychology'' has a second definition of ''[[autism]]'': "abnormal introversion and egocentricity. It is one of the primary signs of schizophrenia described by Swiss psychiatrist {{w|Eugen Bleuler}}. See also [[fundamental symptom]]s." 
::Many polysemous terms have bits of evaluation that bleed from one definition to others. It might be ''historical'' or ''dated''. Apparently Bleuler is the source of a few psychiatric terms. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 22:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::FWIW, the OED deals with this sense thus: "A condition or state of mind characterized by patterns of thought which are detached from reality and logic, formerly sometimes regarded as a manifestation of schizophrenia or other psychiatric illness. '''Now ''hist''.'''" (my bolding) --[[User:Droigheann|Droigheann]] ([[User talk:Droigheann|talk]]) 23:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::::I've also added a historical sense at {{m|en|autism}} equivalent to that. [[User:Lingo Bingo Dingo|Lingo Bingo Dingo]] ([[User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo|talk]]) 10:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[indeterminate gender]] ==

Especially since this is a PaM entry, I suspect the def is wrong. Gender isn't physical sex, is it? - whereas [[intersex]] does refer to physical attributes. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 12:10, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:I would expect that it would refer more to a state of ignorance about the grammatical gender of a word, or about the sex of a person, rather than definite knowledge of being intersex, but I don't have documentation on that... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 15:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, some speakers use "gender" to mean "sex", but even then, the meaning of this phrase is that the gender (in whatever sense of that word) is not determined (not specified or not clear), not that it is definitively intersex; {{b.g.c.|"of indeterminate gender"}} shows this. And that makes this seem rather SOP. (For a direct "gender" counterpart to "intersex", see "intergender" as in e.g. {{b.g.c.|"intergender people"}}.) [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 22:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I've started [[Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion#indeterminate_gender]]. [[User:-sche|- -sche]] [[User talk:-sche|(discuss)]] 22:37, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[murder will out]] ==

How is this parsed syntactically? Is "out" a verb, or is it an adjective, with verb elided? (Cf. Shakespeare: "Truth's a dog that must to kennel.") [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 12:46, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:Fascinating question, Equinox! Is it not same as [[out#Verb|verb sense 5]] though? (And, oddly, not all that different from verb sense 2.)  --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 17:26, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:Sorry, that was only a partial reply. Isn't it [[w:Verb_phrase_ellipsis|verb phrase ellipsis]]? (E.g. "come out" with the "come" elided? Or "will out itself" with the "itself" elided)?--[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 18:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:It's an adverb, with the main verb implied. ‘Out’ here means ‘be discovered’, ‘become known’, and it used to be used more widely – but now only exists in these specific set phrases. [[User:Widsith|Ƿidsiþ]] 19:14, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::That's interesting. What's the implied main verb, just out of curiosity? --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 20:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Well – "get", "become", "be", that sort of thing. [[User:Widsith|Ƿidsiþ]] 20:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::::Ah, I see. Thanks :) --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 20:33, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::I know that in Middle English, one could say "I will to [location]" and the verb ''go'' was understood. Not sure if that construct ever included ''come'' or ''get'' but why not ? [[User:Leasnam|Leasnam]] ([[User talk:Leasnam|talk]]) 18:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

== Tactile Sign Language ==

Hi, I haven't researched a lot about this version of sign language, but at least its alphabet should be added to Wiktionary. I don't know whether it should be a a type of fingerspelling or rather a new language as such.
http://www.deafblindinformation.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/db-tactile-alphabet.pdf
Thanks in advance. --[[User:Backinstadiums|Backinstadiums]] ([[User talk:Backinstadiums|talk]]) 12:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

== [[go from strength to strength]] ==

[Copied across from RFV.]

I was just wondering whether the article should be on "from strength to strength" without the "go".  If I am right about that then it would not be a verb.  [[User:John Cross|John Cross]] ([[User talk:John Cross|talk]]) 07:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

* I think it should be left alone, it makes more sense as it is now. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 09:09, 27 April 2017 (UTC)''
:This isn't really an RfV question, rather a Tea Room item.
:''From strength to strength'' is occasionally used with other verbs, such as ''grow'', ''continue'', ''[[went on]]'', as well as in titles without any verb. I would try to reword the definition to suit the prepositional phrase, move the entry to [[[[from strength to strength]]]], and make [[[[go from strength to strength]]]] a redirect as it is by far the most common use in running text. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 09:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Move this to the Tea Room then. ''[[User:Donnanz|DonnanZ]] ([[User talk:Donnanz|talk]]) 10:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)''

[Now in Tea Room]

Copied across. [[User:John Cross|John Cross]] ([[User talk:John Cross|talk]]) 15:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:Just wondering why we don't have it as "'''to''' go from strength to strength"? The definition uses a "to". --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 17:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:: Same reason our entries are for [[eat]] and [[sleep]], etc., not "to eat" and "to sleep". [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 17:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Oh, I thought we put a "to" when it's an idiom. I'm sure I've seen one like that here at some point in the last 8 years or so but can't remember which.--[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 17:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: I don't think we ever do that for [[verb phrase]]s. It's different if the headword is an entire clause or sentence, like {{m|en|to err is human}}. [[User:Equinox|Equinox]] [[User_talk:Equinox|◑]] 17:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

== homophone formatting ==

Hi,

Since in Australia & New Zealand, "shown", like [[known#Pronunciation|known]], is often pronounced as two syllables, I was thinking of adding something like the following to [[shown#Pronunciation|the pronunciation section of shown]], except that I don't know how to replace the comma (between "show" and "un", below) with a hyphen.

* {{lb|en|Australia}}, {{lb|en|NZ}} {{homophones|en|show}}-[[un]]  (''some dialects'')

Any help will be very much appreciated.   --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 17:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:I've added it as follows for now. I hope that doesn't bother anyone too much.
* {{lb|en|Australia}}, {{lb|en|NZ}} {{homophones|en|show}}-[[un]]  (''some dialects'')

:--[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 18:30, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:: We generally don't use {{temp|homophones}} just to show a divergent pronunciation. It's used if there's another full word that has the exact same pronunciation as the current word. I'm not sure if what you say is correct (I've heard, I can't remember where, that the two-syllable pronunciation is a misperception), but it should be transcribed using the pronunciation respelling or the IPA as given at [[Appendix:English pronunciation]]. — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 19:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Ok, that's understandable. I would be very interested to read anything that discusses it at all, I haven't been able to find anything so far. Obviously I don't think it's a misperception. --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 20:21, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::p.s. I'm interested in this idea of 'misperception'. Isn't perception of pronunciations a question of perspective? For example, with the homophones we've got under [[bin#Pronunciation|the pronunciation of "bin"]]. The first one is from a non-New Zealand perspective, the second is from an NZ perspective. But if you have some kind of authoritative source on this I'd love (as I said above) to find out more. --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 20:30, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::: I think it was a discussion somewhere &ndash; maybe on Wikipedia. I don't have any sources on this topic. Don't let my skepticism discourage you from adding the pronunciation using the IPA or the pronunciation respelling system (again, see [[Appendix:English pronunciation]]). — [[User:Erutuon|Eru]]·[[User talk:Erutuon|tuon]] 20:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
::::: Cool bananas. I did just find this [https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/90493/pronouncing-the-n-as-separate-syllable-at-the-end-of-words-like-known-and-p]  after searching for "known" and "shown" pronounced as two syllables, in case you're interested. --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 21:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:: For the purposes of the template, [[homophone]]s are actual terms that sound the same. That's not the case here. That makes no more sense than saying that [[hippopotamus]] is a homophone of [[hip]] + <strike>[[opotamus]]</strike>. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 19:36, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Yes, that makes sense. I'll revert my addition now.--[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 20:21, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

About the homophone "shone", I'm pretty sure that's not a homophone of "shown" in the UK - is that right? If so should it have a US (and maybe Australia, NZ) qualifier on it? --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 21:01, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
:I've just sub-sectioned the US homophony of "shown"/"shone", bullet-wise - hopefully that makes sense - I think (and hope) that that's right. --[[User:Philologia Sæculārēs|Philologia Sæculārēs]] ([[User talk:Philologia Sæculārēs|talk]]) 21:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

* On a related note, we often pronounce [[pool]], [[fool]] and [[film]] as two syllables - POO-eul, FOO-eul and FILL-eum respectively. [[User:Tooironic|---&#62; Tooironic]] ([[User talk:Tooironic|talk]]) 13:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

== hemorrhoidal face ==

I found this quotation that doesn't seem to match the usual meaning of {{m|en|hemorrhoidal}}, since it is used to describe the face. Does anybody know of other examples where the word is used this loosely?
* '''1990''', [[w:Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky|Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky]] (translators), [[w:Fyodor Dostoyevsky|Fyodor Dostoevsky]] (author), ''[[w:The Brothers Karamazov|The Brothers Karamazov]]'', North Point Press, {{ISBN|0-86547-422-2}}, page 659:
*: The presiding judge was a stocky, thick-set man, of less than average height, with a '''hemorrhoidal''' face, about fifty years old, his gray-streaked hair cut short, wearing a red ribbon — I do not remember of what order.
[[User:Germyb|Germyb]] ([[User talk:Germyb|talk]]) 01:47, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
:Sounds like you have noted an extended use of ''[[hemorrhoidal]]''. Perhaps "related to or resembling hemorrhoids". It would be handy if there were an illustration. What is the Russian word? What translation do other translators offer? [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 18:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
::Judging from [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Analfissur-chron-aussen-1-06.jpg this unlovely image] it may refer to a face of a very fat person. [[User:DCDuring|DCDuring]] ([[User talk:DCDuring|talk]]) 18:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
::The phrase in Russian is "с геморроидальным лицом". Another translator says "with a dyspeptic complexion". [[User:Germyb|Germyb]] ([[User talk:Germyb|talk]]) 01:09, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
::: The main word, {{l|ru|геморроидальным}} in that phrase seems to be based on a Russian word for [[hemorrhoid]], (In case you're wondering, {{l|ru|г}} is routinely used to represent an h in borrowings). The translators probably just transferred/[[calque]]d the literal meaning to English, and didn't bother with whatever figurative meaning it might have had in the Russian ({{ping|Atitarev}} might know what that is). You'd really need to find usage outside of a translation to even figure out what it means in English, if anything. [[User:Chuck Entz|Chuck Entz]] ([[User talk:Chuck Entz|talk]]) 04:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:::: The figurative dated sense of {{m|ru|геморроида́льный}} here is of officials who have been sitting on the same chair (i.e. occupying the same position) for a very long time (and got hemorrhoids as a result) - [http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/michelson_old/1674/Геморроидальный source]--[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 05:03, 2 May 2017 (UTC)